Fleischer, on ranking SRR behind Ketchel, Ryan, Greb and Walker

There were in his weight class at one point, and close enough to in height and weight.

Burley started out at welter!

Williams fought at light weight!

Coco Kid, at super light weight!

Booker at Welter

And Zale? Not sure where he started.

Sugar Ray was 5'11" tall, and pretty much had the height edge on all of the above. Yes, Charles was a reach, so is Archie Moore. Yet all these talented black fighters are absent from his resume? Are you saying that 100% coincidence?

 

Robinson agreed to fight Cocoa Kid twice and failed to turn up both times,Burley offered Robinson his entire purse if he would fight him.
Williams was a welterweight.Booker fought from welter to lhvy.
Cocoa Kid was a welter and middle.

 

This I did not know. At what point in time did Burley offer his entire purse to fight Robinson?

 

He fought Turpin 9 days after his previous title fight and he did lose on points. He knocked Turpin out in the rematch though, so memorably described by Liebling. Not sure how that could be called a loss.

 

Thx man. Great article! Kudos

 

Mendoza & McVey

I disagree that Robinson was in the same class for any length of time except for the Cocoa Kid.

On September 9, 1941, Robinson weighed 135 for his fight with Max Shapiro. A lightweight. He was only 20 and growing and The Ring did recognize him as a welter in their year end ratings, putting him in the #1 contender position. The #2 & #3 contenders were Jackie Wilson (an African-American) and Fritzie Zivic, both of whom Robinson in fact fought. Burley, Williams, and the Cocoa Kid were rated 5th, 6th, and 7th. By 1942 Williams and Burley were middles. They fought on June 23, 1942, and both weighed 157 lbs. Robinson would have had to give up more than 10 lbs. against either. As for Eddie Booker, he fought Archie Moore on December 11, 1942 and actually outweighed him 160 lbs. to 158 lbs. Robinson would have had to give up 15 lbs. or so against Booker.

As for the Cocoa Kid, in 1942 he was rated #4 contender at welter. Robinson was #1, followed by Henry Armstrong and Jackie Wilson at #2 and #3. Robinson fought both those men. The Kid lost twice to Wilson. The Kid soon moved up to middle and he and Robinson never fought. Make of it what you want, but I don't see much to criticize here.

Zale was the middle champ in 1941 when Robinson could still make 135. He entered the army in early 1942. It seems to me that a fight with Zale was never in the cards and if Robinson moved up in 1946 or so he would probably be criticized for avoiding Gavilan.

Charles or Moore? They were much bigger men.

Now if your point is that Greb and Walker did move up to fight topflight bigger men and Robinson didn't, okay. It should be noted, though, that Robinson was somewhat lighter than those two.

However, I do not see a serious criticism of Robinson for not fighting out of his weight class. And the fact that these men were once in his weight class means nothing. They weren't at the same time Robinson was. Henry Armstrong was once the featherweight champion, so why not criticize Willie Pep for not fighting him in the early 1940's? Robinson was once a lightweight, so why not criticize Ike Williams for not fighting him?

All I see here is that Robinson was decently managed and not generally forced to fight larger men.

 

I think a much more serious and fair criticism of Robinson is why he didn't fight a rubber match with Turpin when that was the biggest money fight on the table.

Just an aside, I think very few fighters fought more good men over a longer period of time than Robinson.

 

Didn't Mickey Walker mix successfully with heavyweights? Seems like one of those legendary fighters whos feats will never be ducplicated, similar to the likes of Jimmy Wilde, or Sam Langford.

 

Yes, he did. And so did Greb. This is a valid point in comparison to Robinson. I guess a question that might make a good debate topic--does competing successfully against light-heavies or heavies prove one is better at middleweight? Or does it just mean you can compete successfully against bigger men?

 

It's almost hard to even level anything negative against fighters from a certain age, whether film of them exists or not. The results are already there, written in stone. Sam Langford really did knock out the likes of Harry Wills, and Harry Greb thrashed the man that twice out-pointed heavyweight destroyer Jack Dempsey.

What can you really say, you know?

 

Tommy O Loughlin tried to set up an eliminator between Robinson and Burley.No dice,"Sugar Ray would never fight himO Loughlin recounted in 1961,I know I tried to make the match several times." The Gods Of War ",Springs Toledo.
Highly recommended. Robinson never fought
Cocoa Kid
AaronWade
Holman Williams
Charley Burley
He employed an old Cocoa Kid as a sparring partner and the 35 years old Kid floored him. Tiger Wade bashed his ribs in.

 

"Robinson never fought"

"Aaron Wade"

"Tiger Wade bashed his ribs in."

Robinson KO'd Wade on 2-22-1950 in three rounds. Robinson fought Jean Walzack five days later. When did the alleged rib bashing in occur? Other than his time in the service, Robinson fought consistently from the time he started his career in 1940. He reached over 100 fights by 1950.

There were a lot of good fighters out there and no one fought them all. Take Burley against other black fighters. He somehow missed Henry Armstrong, Jackie Wilson, Kid Tunero, Jose Basora, and Eddie Booker. I don't think he ducked them. Just one of those things. All these men were rated in the same division in the same years as Burley.

If you look at the welterweight division during Robinson's time, besides himself, the top rated black contenders were Armstrong, Jackie Wilson, Tommy Bell, Sugar Costner, Kid Gavilan and Gene Burton. He fought them all except Burton, who faded fast and I find it unlikely Robinson ducked Burton to fight Gavilan.

"Kid floored him."

So did Tommy Bell. Doesn't mean he could win a fight, even if this gym rumor is in fact true.

The problem with this "Murderers Row" concept to a degree is that it was during WWII with the competition probably devalued by the war. Some, such as Charles and Moore, went to higher levels after the war. But quite a few others, such as Burley and Williams, saw their careers and ratings slip with the end of the war and the return of the servicemen. I wouldn't go too far, but it is a bit of a judgment call how good they really were.

As for Burley's manager, what elimination would a middleweight fight with a welterweight? Except for an unlikely two or three month window in 1941, Burley and Robinson were not fighting in the same weight class. And I don't find managers objective sources.

It is my guess though, that Robinson's management was more interested in matching him against top white fighters than top black fighters as that was where the big money was.

Still looking at the Ring yearly rankings, Burley's complaints should be directed at Zale, LaMotta, Graziano, and Cerdan more than at the welterweight Robinson.

 

Basically this is P4P.

You can make a strong argument for Greb and Walker.

You have a sustainable argument for Ryan.

Ketchel I have to say no, even though he stacks up as a great middleweight.

 

It occurred when Wade was a spar mate with Robinson who was training to fight Steve Belloise the first week of December 1948. Robinson decided he was only going to pay Wade a small part of his sparring money. Wade left the gym ,but then waited for Ray outside,when Ray came out Wade demanded the full agreed amount.Ray retorted that he would be lucky to get anything and Ray knocked him down and gave him a going over that separated some ribs. Wade did "fight",Ray in Feb 1950 ,or rather he turned up for a few bucks , take a look at when Wade had fought his last fight. here are some quotes from the fight. " The Tiger began hitting the canvas for no apparent reason at all.When Ray moved within firing range the husky Wade repeatedly fell to the canvas" The Savannah Evening Post.
.
Robinson never during the evening hit Wade with a solid punch" The Press. Wade told his son Alan that he went into the tank for the Ray fight,his son asked him if Robinson knew about it,he replied,"Robinson had nothing to do with it". Wade said the promoters told him to go down for good in the 3rd round and that he would get a few hundred dollars for doing so.His son said Wade asked the promoters if he could go "five or six rounds",but they turned him down.Source , for all quotes, "Murderers Row" by Springs Toledo ,an excellent book!
ps Armstrong refused to fight Burley who had beaten Zivic twice, instead he fought Zivic!
Burley fought
Williams
Wade
Moore
Chase
Charles
Marshall
Bivins
Lytell
Cocoa Kid
If you think he ducked any one, or was overated ,you need to do some serious research!