Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Olu G. Rotimi, Oct 3, 2023.
Agreed. Somewhere between 20-30 sounds about right to me.
It is. I have Sugar Ray Leonard at around 17-18, and he beat Benitez, Duran, Hearns and Hagler for starters. Floyd's top wins aren't on that level.
Floyd uses the same method a lot of modern sports fans use. He thinks sheer quantity and numbers are enough to make his case.
Holmes had more title defenses than Ali, but Ali has more quality wins. Liston, Foreman, Frazier, Norton, Quarry, Terrel, etc are of a higher overall quality than Cooney, Old Norton, Witherspoon, Berbick, Old Shavers, Mercer, etc. This is why context matters, not just the sheer number of title defenses.
A boxer can beat more ranked contenders, but WHEN you beat them matters too! I can beat 6 ranked contenders and another guy can beat 3, but if 5 of the 6 guys I beat were all old, gunshy, coming off various injuries etc, that's not as impressive as beating 3 guys in their prime.
A boxer can beat more "champions", but if some of those champions won their belts through a controversial decision, they won a vacant belt, they managed to defend their belt 0 times, etc, that doesn't look good under scrutiny. Again, if I beat 10 champions and 8 of them had all those dubious circumstances that's less impressive than beating 5 champions who all earned their belts convincingly and defended their belts a few times.
Unfortunately for Floyd, this applies to some of his competition. Some guys were older (Mosley, Pacquiao). Some were very young and inexperienced (Ortiz, Canelo). Some had literally just come off a loss (Judah). Floyd missed several names in his era (Tzyu, Williams, Margarito). He very conspicuously never became undisputed in a 4 belt era. He very conspicuously missed several of the rising young champions at 147 (Thurman, Porter, Brook, Khan, etc). For quite a while he was primarily focused on fighting aggressive Latino sluggers and seemed to lack variety in opponents towards the end of his career (where are the counter punchers, movers, boxer-punchers, etc?).
He was unquestionably the best fighter of his era in terms of "career" and he passes the eye test for amazing skill/defense. But Floyd was very strategic in the way he maneuvered around his career and wasn't seeking out the murderer's row. He never cleaned out any of his divisions. For me, an ATG isn't just about sheer numbers, you need to fight best when they're at THEIR best. The most glaring would be Pacuiao, Cotto, Canelo, Mosley, Hatton, and De la Hoya. Those were perhaps his 6 best opponents and only ONE of them was in his prime! That's a big issues for me because quality is just as important as quantity, if not more important.
You could argue him into the top 15. An astounding achievement.
First Tier: Greb, Langford, Robinson...
Second Tier: Duran, Ali, Armstrong, Fitzsimmons, Louis
Third Tier: Where Floyd is competing for a place.
Well, he was never Henry Armstrong, Robert Duran, or Sugar Ray Robinson (for starters) .
I too think Pernell might rank a bit above him.
Floyd is however certainly an ATG though, very great fighter imo.
This is only a valid comparison with those in the four belt era. And even then I wonder if Pac doesn't have him beat.
I could see top 10 and above the Four Kings for example. Don't know if I'd have him there, but the argument doesn't seem unreasonable.
I would suggest that is unreasonable.He might have a case to rank above Hearns.Then again, Hearns would beat his ass badly.
He has none
I don't do fantasy H2H and in terms of resume I'd have him above Hearns. And Duran, seeing how Duran **** his pants (not literally as first claimed, though) in New Orleans.
Leonard is harder, I'd say, since it depends on how you weigh quantity against quality of wins.
Again, he has a case to be ranked above Hearns. But not above the others.
Ok. Misunderstood you.
I have him above Hagler, I think his resume is clearly better. And because of No Mas, I have him above Duran.
Leonard is either way for me. I can see Leonard above because of his superior wins, but also Mayweather for his consistency and longevity.
Well Duran had over 100 fights. With Duran's performances over Barkley and Hagler, I just think that is just too much to overcome for Floyd. Duran is a lock Top 10 ATG in my book
Leonard's wins over Benitez, Duran and Hearns, that is just too much to overcome for Floyd. Leonard is a lock Top 15 ATG in my book. He even has a case for Top 10.
Carrying the worst, by far, quit job in history his resume is not top 10 for me.