Floyd Mayweather Jr. vs the 1980s Welterweight champs.

That's like saying George Foreman's age had no bearing on his second title.

Manny had a great 2014 with a win over pfp Bradley who is lock for the hof. He followed that up after the Floyd fight by beating him more easily and by beating legitimate contender Vargas without much issue. I'd probably favor him over Cuevas and Brown. Honeyghan would be close. He wouldn't much of an underdog to any of the others (not including the big three) except Curry. Breland isn't easy to categorize because had great range but a spotty career. Manny never really fought anyone like him and vice versa.

Shane was coming off the great win over Margarito. He was pretty vulnerable to boxers by that point, but he could still give hell to guys like Cuevas and Brown.

 

Are these fantasy fights all in Vegas under the Mayweather rules or are they on neutral fantasy ground?

 

No - it's not like saying that, at all.

It's actually stating that, in assessing a series of head-to-head, fantasy, welterweight match-ups, I am not interested in Mayweather's twelve bouts at 147 having been contested over a ten year period.

Manny was past his prime. Mosley was past his prime.

If you're trying to mitigate the timing of these fights by pointing towards Mayweather's own age, when these bouts were contested then you should be putting forth what you believe to be the best Welterweight version of Mayweather. This would help define the conditions of the fantasy match-ups.

These are fantasy head-to-head match-ups; not age comparisons; not career record comparisons; not relative legacy comparisons.

So, which version of Mayweather at 147 would you, in your opinion, consider to be optimum?

 

Best to me was against Marquez.

What I'm saying is that Floyd was good to the point where he was still the top fighter in the sport when he was physically a shell of his old self. He had enough layers of talent to still be the best when he was past it. It wasnt a random occurrence that he had such good longevity; others like Hopkins, Moore, and Duran have shown shades of the same thing and most are legends. It reflects on how good he actually was at his best, even if nobody really forced him to show it.

 

I've actually never rooted for Mayweather in any fight. I think he's been bad for boxing by glamorizing cherry picking so that even the most popular Mexican fighter today uses it as a career business model. I've rooted against him in every fight since I first watched him against ODL. And its why my favorite fighters of the last ten years have been Froch, Pacquiao, Hopkins, early Cotto, Maidana, Matthysse, and Lomachenko. They knew to be the best you have to beat the best.
But that doesn't mean I don't acknowledge Floyd's greatness. His skill level is undeniable. Many classic boxing students have him an all time top 4 defensive boxer on Mt Rushmore alongside Pep, Whitaker, and Locce. If he had had the courage to test that skill level against the contemporay greats of his era when their stars were brightest, his atg status for me would be in the 16 -20 range, instead of in the 25 -30 range where I have him now. So no, I'm not a *****, and I particularly despise his rabid apologists on YouTube who deride GGG, Lomachenko, Kovalev for reasons that are readily apparent to those of us who are regular watchers of YouTube boxing video bloggers. But like him or not, Floyd Mayweather is for me unquestionably the best boxer of this generation, is shoulder to shoulder with the greats of the last generation - Jones and Whitaker - and only takes a back seat when Leonard and Duran get into the atg car.
All of this, of course, is my humble opinion.

 

If someone had asked me to put money on a Mayweather opponent, who would be mentioned in relation to Floyd's peak, I'd have opted for them bringing up the name of Marquez. But, as to why supporters of Floyd consistently do this, I have no idea.

When a fat and aging career Featherweight becomes the benchmark for your optimum point at the 147 weight class, it's got to say something.

Nevertheless - If 2009 is the year then so be it. The problem is Marquez as an opponent and the fight itself combine to make a fairly low benchmark. Everyone on the OP's list hospitalizes poor Marquez.

If we go the fight before, against Hatton. I think everyone on the list beats Hatton. And, I've already stated that I think Mosley would be done for against them all.

I see where you are coming from with what you have written above. I just don't agree with it to the extent that it means he couldn't be taxed heavily by good natural welters, such as those listed.

Despite all that, I think the following might have happened, against each of the listed opponents...

- Cuevas would have had a puncher's chance but struggle to land.
- Similar story for Brown but with perhaps more chance of landing.
- Breland might have been interesting just for the sheer gap in size but Floyd would have handled him to a points win.
- The Honeyghan that showed up to face Curry would deliver an initial shock but soon be tamed.
- McCrory does not get a look in, during a fairly dull affair, over the distance.

- Starling has a real chance, here. A very versatile, highly proficient pressure fighter, who was comfortable holding the center of the ring or backing up when necessary - and had seemingly endless stamina. Starling carried a great armory and was always moving - generally forward and with an intelligent attack. He'd get a reaction from Floyd.
- Curry, I think beats Floyd. He cultivated a terrifically well-timed, fast and accurate overhand right, as well as a left hook that carried venom. He would frustrate Floyd by being in frame, at all times, without bull-rushing like most offensive fighters he's met. Like Starling, Curry would force a fight from Floyd.

- Leonard, Duran and Hearns all beat Mayweather, handily. Hearns batters him.

 

That's some very thoughtful and well explained picks.

 

I also agree with your post. I would only rank Floyd between TOP40-TOP 50 ATG and not in the TOP30 ATG. Too much stock is put in his undefeated record, he did not take on some tough challenges and that has to be critzised.

 

Thanks JT.

I don't think one could be fairer than taking the 'win against a few; lose against a few' approach. It's easy to forget that there were a lot of very good natural Welterweights around in the mid-to-late '80s, with quite varied physical attributes and styles.

Whilst it is not necessarily uncommon for smaller men to move up to 147, it does seem that the division depended on this migration from the smaller weight divisions, moving out of the '80s, into and during the '90s - with the likes of Chavez, Whitaker, ODLH, Mosley etc. leading the way...

 

I have not really given an ATG ranking for Mayweather Jr. any serious consideration. I may have toyed around with some ideas but I've sat back a bit, away from the chatter and hype about this, since his retirement became imminent and now seems to be permanent (although, you never know).

I think that, unless you're a real 'Mayweather Fan', it's gong to be hard to justify a very high position in the Top-100 ATG Listings. There's the 49-0 record and some nice names - but, not a lot else.

The talent was there for sure but, as you suggest, challenges perceived as tough by the Boxing public, were dismissed by Mayweather as irrelevant; as not paying him enough or - the most laughable of all - as a danger to his health because the former flyweight champion he was too scared to fight, in 2010, was a serial PED user (entirely unproven accusations without a shred of material evidence).

His carefully managed career and obvious slander of a number-one adversary - whom he elected not to fight until a zimmer frame was on order - plus, his dubious involvement with USADA (which somewhat poetically led to himself being suspected of illegal use of a thera.peutic device) will not be looked upon too kindly as the years roll on. When the dust settles and history looks honestly at his story, I wouldn't be surprised to see a more negative take on a re-framed career.

 

Like with Leonard beating Duran? Marquez happens to have sparked out the best fighter on the planet while fighting at 147. Duran didn't do that. He also happened to be pfp top 2 or 3 when he fought Floyd.

 

Marquez would beat Cuevas and give Brown a tough fight. Probably competitive with two or three others.

 

Sorry, but any welterweight version of Marquez and especially the version that Mayweather faced, gets knocked into next year by either Cuevas or Brown.

 

Cuevas was tailor made for Marquez. Little to no size advantage, unremarkable handspeed, ample opportunities to be countered. Marquez would take his hook away and outbox him. He knocked Pac out at 147, after all.

 

How is that a sensible comparison?

Duran had already proven he could beat Leonard, if he prepared properly. He didn't for the rematch and more fool him. And, this isn't the fight, which benchmarks Leonard's greatness at Welterweight, though evening the score didn't hurt.

Clearly, his KO of Hearns and unification of the Title was the ultimate prize.

You mean while fighting within the Welterweight limit? Anyway, we are discussing a 2009 Marquez; not the supplemented to the gills 2012 version.

You might also not have noticed but, until recently, the Welterweight division has been more or less ruled over by very little men, who have traversed one, two, three or more divisions to fight there.

You think that, because Marquez has managed to spark Pacquiao, while they were both competing in that division, weighing in at a few pounds over 140, he could do that to natural Welterweights?

Of course he couldn't. He hasn't managed it again in any other of his Welterweight bouts.

By the way - in case you didn't know or have perhaps forgotten - when competing in the 130 division, Pacquiao's fight night weigh-ins had him around the 140-ish mark. Guess who wobbled him bad at 130?

If you think Pacquiao was the best fighter on the planet at the time Marquez beat him (for the first and only time) then you are truly lost. Pacquiao wasn't even really considered the best Welterweight in the world, by then.

Neither did Marquez, as explained above, and the Pound-for-Pound ratings are a subjective pile of pretentious wank.

Even if those ratings were more sensibly compiled and stable, Pound-for-Pound doesn't mean a Boxer listed in them can compete with anyone at any weight at any time. Marquez had never fought above 140 before, when he met Mayweather - that's all you need to know.

Duran, instead, beat a Prime ATG Welterweight in a classic contest. A real tangible accomplishment.