Floyd Mayweather Jr. vs the 1980s Welterweight champs.

So, because he knocked out Pacquiao, he could outbox Cuevas?

The size advantage for Pipino is significant, what with him being a natural Welterweight and all...
...The creaking, overweight Marquez has had little choice but to be drawn into boxer-puncher firefights over the last several years, which is not a tailor-made scenario for Marquez - especially the plump featherweight Marquez, who was rolled out in 2009 - because, against Cuevas, he gets tagged.

 

First of all I Hate Mayweather, he Loses to Leonard, Hearns, Duran, Maybe Curry, Honeyghan and McCrory could give him trouble, he beats the others.

 

Same day weigh ins, bro.

The empirical facts are that Marquez and Pacquiao have combined for well over a hundred fights and dozens of world level fights. Each has shared the ring with more than one future hall of famer at 147 not named Mayweather. Mayweather is the only guy to dominate either. A person who doesn't struggle with empirical facts could realize that they were legitimate fighters at 147 and that Mayweather dominated them because he was a special fighter.

 

I believe Mayweather beats Simon Brown. Buddy McGirt was able to use angles and outbox Simon who tended to stiffened up if he could get set.
Mark Breland would win a UD
Marlon Starling would win a UD
Donald Curry for a his short peak would beat Floyd maybe by stoppage.
McCrory would lose a decision
Honeyghan would lose a decision
Duran would win a close but clear decison
Hearns by devastating knockout
Leonard by similar to the fight with his dad.
Cuevas would lose a decison but have a puncher`s chance.

 

Good post. I particularly agree with the part that history may not be so kind to Floyd who was at time reluctant to take on the toughest challenges.

 

You know? One can use facts and still come to a biased conclusion. All one needs to do is write about the facts that favor a certain view and ignore those that do not. There is also the relevancy and strength of facts to be considered.

One of the "empirical facts" you have ignored, in spectacular fashion, is that Pipino Cuevas is bigger than Juan Manual Marquez. Period.

There comes a stage when a certain obvious point is not worth arguing anymore. If you want to insist that Marquez is equal in size to Pipino Cuevas, it only shows how far you are prepared to go, in order to gain favor for your perspective on Mayweather's fight with Marquez, as though it were some form of Welterweight mastery we witnessed.

The above is an example of loose and broadly conveyed facts, which are not strong enough to make your case in this matter. However, since you like facts so much, here are several, which are actually related to the point in question for you.

1. It would be more than two years, after his bout with Mayweather, before Marquez would fight again, above 140
2. In that two year or so period, Marquez competed at Lightweight twice and once at Light Welterweight
3. After that, he faced Pacquiao (who himself is not a natural Welterweight) for the WBO World welterweight title
4. That title fight was at a contracted catchweight of 144 pounds.
5. Marquez then went back down a division to compete at 140.
6. He met Pacquiao again, in his first full Welterweight bout, in 2012, more than three years after his match with Mayweather.
7. Overall, Juan Manuel Marquez is 0-2-0 in Welterweight World Title Fights

None of the above suggests to me that Marquez could have been considered a world class Welterweight, at the time he faced Mayweather. These facts additionally indicate that Marquez never really became one, subsequently.

Here's some more facts for you:

8. Marquez had never fought beyond the Lightweight division before meeting Mayweather
9. Mayweather's bout with Marquez was at a contracted limit of 144 pounds
10. Mayweather failed to make the contracted weight for Marquez, coming in at 146
11. Pacquaio has been fighting catchweight bouts between 140-147, as recently as his Algieri bout (2014)
12. Pacquiao is 9-2-0 in Welterweight World Title Fights (all wins with the WBO and without successful unification)
13. Pacquiao is not an ATG Welterweight
14. Marquez is not an ATG Welterweight

You can dress up Marquez and Pacquiao and all the other relevant names on Mayweather's ledger as HOF'ers. The Hall of Fame is not weight-specific and it doesn't change the timing of Mayweather's fights; the condition of his Welterweight opponents, at those times, and the flimsy basis you're using for how Mayweather would fair against some of the best natural Welterweights in the OP's list.

If you haven't realized it yet, you've more or less made my case for me, with your insistence on using Marquez as a baseline for Mayweather's prowess as a Welterweight.

As previously alluded to, "empirical facts" are really only useful as such, if all the facts are considered and not just the ones that fit your story. Moreover, the facts you use are woolly and do not directly address the point of the thread.

Legitimacy and physical reality are two different things. Your argument is fundamentally flawed in it being predicated on Marquez and Pacquiao being able to physically contest against prime, natural welterweights at the highest level. Marquez is a clear example of failing to achieve this. The "facts" demonstrate this.

And, while Pacquiao has had more success than Marquez at Welterweight, he has used catchweights ever since moving there and focused on mainly aged, undersized and/or limited opponents in that division. He had shown himself to be slowed up and vulnerable at the weight, before meeting Mayweather. Any rational observer could see this.

Both Marquez and Pacquiao are great fighters but they are not Great Welterweights and, given this and the timing of when Mayweather faced them both, these wins are not hugely supportive of a prediction that Mayweather could beat most of the natural Welterweights in the OP's list.

 

Quick, what fighter went on and had a successful career AFTER Floyd defeated him other then Alvarez? (And that can be debated when his opponents are looked at ) Answer is none, and especially at welter weight. Give me a fighter like Hearns who had 5 losses with two of those to ATG in the prime of their careers than an undefeated fighter who everyone he fought who was somebody was on the downside of their career or, a naturally smaller fighter who was going up in weight to fight him strictly for money. Yes, I do believe my eyes and see he is skilled. But so was Terry Norris, Medrick Taylor, and quite a few others. But is he an ATG? Some may consider him that with a 49-0 record, and him defeating a few name fighters,like Deloyhoya,Mosley, Pac, Hatten and others, but I see a bunch of fighters who were over the hill, and a few deep in the valley. Either by his manipulation or by just lucky timing every real threat he faced their was a big question mark by their name by the time he fought them. To me his career is a big question mark . Theirs no signature wins. Theirs no come from behind wins, no fighter he faced did anything AFTER he fought them. That in it self speaks volumes. I know I will hear from his fans how he would've defeated Godzilla and King Kong on the same day, and later that night defeated M.Tyson and S.Liston. But in my OPINION his career while very successful if you look at his bank account,and he is relatively injury free, leaves too many questions marks for me to say he belongs in that upper echelon of ATG fighters who wanted to fight the best, when they were at their best.

 

Corrales, Cotto, Castillo, Canleo, Jesus Chavez, Hatton, Pacquiao, Marquez. Carlos Hernandez,etc. all had successful careers post Mayweather. Judah even got some good wins. Bizarre thing to say.

 

@Man_Machine
Not counting Mayweather, Marquez is 2-2 at welterlight with a SD loss to a future hall of famer (Bradley) and a borderline robbery loss to ATG Pacquiao. I won't explain the definition of a welterweight fight to you (hint:if it's for a welterweight title it's probably a welterweight fight.)
Pepino started at lightweight and typically would weigh in around 146 with same day weigh ins. He'd only have a small size advantage over Marquez. Interestingly, Pepino never managed to finish a fight against a hall of famer much less beat one.

Additionally, if Marquez were actually a better fighter--welterweight or otherwise--when he sparked Pacquiao, that would make him pretty much the only top flight fighter I can think of who suddendly improved in his late 30s. Or he just got trounced by Mayweather because he was inferior to him.

 

I'm hoping to exit this thread pretty soon.

To summarize, I think people make the mistake of judging Mayweather's opposition based on their performances against him. In actuality, he's the variable that threw them off, dropping their punch output way under their average and making them walk in straight lines like journeymen. A great example of this is Canelo, who looked like dogs hit against a 36 year old, badly outsized Floyd, but held his own by edging two very skilled boxers in Lara and Trout. There are also the previously mentioned examples of Marquez and Pacquiao who only got dominated by Floyd. Corrales is another great example. His shtick for the cameras and deplorable history of wife beating make it that much easier to underrate him.

Roy Jones had a similar problem ten years ago but now gets more respect for his resume. I think Floyd will head in the same direction.

 

I stated his record in Welterweight World Title Fights - try reading the post properly next time to save yourself from trying to be clever and looking silly.

Your comments about Pipino are about as relevant and interesting as the rest of the drivel you have turned out on the thread's topic. Just more proof that Mayweather Fanboyism gets in the way of rational thought - a phenomenon observed over many, many years and clearly something that will last beyond his retirement.

 

It's a shame that you have missed/lost the point of this thread entirely and have used it solely to defend Mayweather's record, without properly addressing the original question posed.

 

Though I did say esp his Welterweight fights, lets take a look at the records you mentioned Corrales went 7-4 Cotto is 3-2, Hatten , 2-2 Pac 2-0 but should be 1-1, Chavez 7-4 Marquez 6-2, Hernandez 10-5, Judah 9- 5 Alvarez is undefeated, but look at what he's been fighting, Those type of records indicate to me fighters on the tail end of their carreers. I don't know what you consider successful, but to me those are Journey men type records after Mayweather. And I'm listing the names you mentioned. Not the ones you conviently omitted. I have no problem with a man having his own opinion, but before you start with the bizarre nonsense, at least take a look and do some research. The records speak for themselves. And I'm not even adding the point of the smaller fighters who, came up in weight to get a big payday, or the ones every fight fan in this world knew they were damage goods.

 

* Corrales became a unified Lightweight champion.
* Castillo would win the lightweight title for a second time.
* Cotto would go on to become middleweight champion.
* Pac remains a welterweight titleholder.
* Chavez and Hernandez both won titles at junior lightweight. Chavez also won a title at lightweight as well.
* Marquez didn't win another championship (though he did remain Lightweight titleholder for a while) but he did score the most definitive win of the series with Pac. Arguably won the third fight, too. Took Bradley to a SD in his other high profile fight.
* Even Judah won a world title at JWW following the fight with Floyd.

I don't know what you consider a journeyman...But winning world titles/championships is considered by most to be operating well above that standard.

 

He did...in his first post on the thread.