Floyd Mayweather would own Jake LaMotta and Robinson

Whoever wrote that I don`t know what fight they were watching, because what I see on the film is completely different from what this writer had to say. Ray did initiate more clinches in this fight, but that was because Docusen was so very quick on his feet that he had a hard time catching him. Robinson clinched because he used that opportunity when he had Bernard close to him to whip those right hands and left hooks to the body every chance he got to slow his man down, which he eventualy did by around the 8th round when both men started trading a lot more.

As for Ray missing his target repeatedly, I wouldn`t go that far but Docusen did make him miss a lot in this fight, which was likely a combination of Ray`s weight troubles coming in but had more to do with the fact that Bernard was just an excellent defensive fighter in his own right. He blocked, slipped and parried punches beautifully, and often would counter Ray immediately afterwards and then dance out of harm`s way.

But Robinson being the great fighter he was turned the tide in the 11th when he floored Docusen, and although Bernie fought back furiously in that round in what is one of the best rounds I have seen, he lost the remaining rounds ro Ray who knew he needed them to get the win. So while Ray was not at his best that night due to weight troubles, he still managed to defeat an excellent fighter who was at his best and in his physical prime at 21 years of age.

It amazes me that people like you Senya and some of the other posters, mainly in the general forum who`s posts aren`t worth the daily bandwith they take up could believe that Mayweather would defeat the true elites of the welterweight class. Hell, put a Bernard Docusen in this era and he cleans out the division in my honest opinion, and remember he was just a contender throughout his career.

All-time great or not, PBF has done all that has been asked of him and I will give him that. Like I said previously, I DO rate Floyd highly at 130 (top ten) and 135 (top 20), but from 140 to 147 he has shown me nothing against quality fighters in their primes who are ACTIVE (unlike DLH) and were considered a threat to him because he hasn`t fought any. Until he does, its gonna take a hell of a lot more for me to call him a great welter than beating the likes of Hatton, Baldomir, Mitchell and Judah as neither of these fighters stood a realistic chance against him.

 

Sounds like good advice, will give it a shot.:good

 

See early rounds vs Judah (who's hands are at least as fast as Robinson's, or probably faster), how Floyd is working from behind high guard against a fighter who's trying to lure him in and counter him using his speed and unusual angles.

How exacly is Robinson going to keep Floyd at the end of his jab, if he has no advantage in reach whatsoever, their handspeed and rexleses are similar, Floyd has a better defense, and Robinson never really relied on his jab that much?

 

Of course, you know Docusen and Robinson and boxing in general better than Frank Mastro who was covering boxing for Chicago Daily Tribune, and who saw them live. Sure.

 

Judah is a short midget ( a 140 boy.) and mentally weak compared to robinson...Hes also a southpaw...This is the kind of analysis thats gets you flamed senya,complete nonsense...Because floyd beat a fast lt welter who is maybe in the top 1000 all time at welter that makes him beat robinson? atsch
Floyd struggled with lightweight castillo for gods sakes...
Remember jc chavez destroyed the southpaw speedster camacho yet lost easily to de la hoya and closely to randall who were both orthodox and slower than camacho...

 

Did I talk about the win over Judah in general? I don't think I did. I pointed out exact style what Robinson would probably try, after he figures he can barely land any clean punches on Floyd. He'll be feinting to make Floyd open up, and counter him. That won't work very effectively, Floyd can work from behind a high guard that would be difficult to penetrate even for someone as quick and unorthodox as Robinson.

 

Really! Lets put Ray Robinson vs Hatton That fought Floyd. U's really think it wood take ray 10 rounds to blast Ricky? Nah, I say under 5 rounds. Floyd did not shine against an older slower DLH he won by a point or 2. Meaning against avg to good fighters Mays puts on a show! When he steps up n talent U's get the point! DLH aint no Robinson. Ray wood really hurt mays. Mikey!

 

Getting a little bit ahead of ourselves are we? I can only comment on what I have seen of the bout, and of those 24 minutes of footage I have I disagree with what this Frank Mastro had to say.

The only reason I can think of for the harsh words usd by this Mastro fella is that Robinson`s performance was subpar next to his other performances, yet he still looked pretty damn good to me on film. If that is considered a poor performance by Mastro, then I would love to see what a peak performance would look like from Ray and what Mastro would say then.

I would still take this version of Ray who according to most sources was somewhat weight drained to beat any version of Floyd I have seen so far at 140-147. Now I never claimed to know more or less than anyone from that era, but I think I`ve got a leg up on you here because I actually have footage of the fight, and have seen both combatants in action whereas you haven`t.

So in that vein I think my opinion carrys a bit more weight here than yours does, at least when discussing Ray`s performance and Docusen`s ablity`s as a fighter. As for Judah what does Floyd`s performance have to do against him when physically and stylistically he bears no similarity whatsoever to Ray, Jake or Zivic? None in my opinion, but fair play to you if you think it does.

 

Somewhat weight drained?
The fight was originally planned for June 17. Because of rain it was postponed until June 21. At the weigh-in on original date Robinson barely managed to weigh at the limit, 147lb stripped. Fearing that he'd be unable to make weight once more Robinson was seeking to postpone the fight for 1 month, but state athletic commission ruled he either makes weight or abandons his title. On June 21 Robinson came to weigh-in procedure half an hour late and said he can't make 147lb limit, and claimed he weighed 151 1/2 lb (refusing to weigh in officially), but it was rumored he weighed at least 4 pounds heavier. Again, because of rain and because of inability to make weight, it was postponed for another week (Robinson's manager had to post an additional $4K forfeit that his fighter would make 147lb next time). According to reports, Robinson was dead tired by 11th round, but used his experience and the fact that Docusen tired out too to control the fight.

 

Also it's interesting to read how deserving was Docusen considered to be as a contender. Gene Burton was #1 contender, Docusen was #2.
Report on their bout on February 13 the same year.

 

Do you realize that what you just wrote just confirms what I said? If Ray was that weight drained for the fight, and still pulled it out of the bag against an excellent contender in Docusen, THAT just goes to show how great Ray was even when not at his best.

So thank you very much for posting that little tidbit, as you have just put the icing on the cake so to speak in my belief that Ray would win be it at his worst or at his best. If Ray comes in drained Floyd may last the distance, ut if Ray is in top form he gets the Pretty Boy out of there within 10 rounds.

 

Your trying really hard to discredit Bernard Docusen as a fighter aren`t you? So what if Gene Burton was the #1 contender? As if it has never happened before or since that the second in line to the title got his shot first instead of the #1 contender... please.

 

So one poor showing is the equivalent of being a poor fighter? Get out of here with that line of thinking. How many stinkers have Floyd or Roy been in? Quite a few in fact, does that mean they were poor fighters? Of course not, so why are you even posting the article?

My guess is that you are trying very hard to imply that Docusen was an undeserving challenger to Ray`s crown due to his lacklustre showing versus Burton, and that the only reason he looked as good as he did against Ray was because the latter was weight drained and thus did not have enough in the tank to blow him out of there within 5.

Pretty sad really.

 

It shows that Docusen, despite having the advantage of not having any troubles of making weight, couldn't use it too well. And it was only Robinson being too tired by 11th round that Docusen managed to last the distance (for the first and only time in his career participating in a 15-round fight). Courageous effort by Docusen, but it cannot by any means serve as a proof that he'd do well against welters of today. The fact that Docusen fought Burton only to a draw in the next fight doesn't help, as Burton dropped out of ratings by this point (at least in Ring ratings for July 15, from September 1948 Ring magazine, which also has a report about Robinson-Docusen bout).

 

It doesn't help that Docusen lost to Dawson by knockout in half a year after meeting with Robinson. Dawson was rated in lightweight division. From April 1949 Ring magazine:

Right at the onset Dawson set the pace and boxed and counter-punched to perfection.
...
The fourth round wasn't a minute old when the Windy Cityite, fighting against odds, height and reach, countered a Docusen lead with a jolting right-hand counter that stunned Bernard. Docusen's legs started to buckle, whereupon Dawson moved in, feinted and let go vicious clouts to head and body. How he ever lasted through two full minutes of this "reign of terror," no one knows.
...
It was only seconds after the sixth round got underway that Dawson again took over, but this time he scored with monotonous regularity, dropping the Duke for a nine-count, and following this up with a hurricane attack. Bernie stood there helpless and ring arbiter, Bernie Wiseman, wisely intervened.


Docusen dropped to #7 in ratings and stayed in top 10 for another year or so, then completely disappeared from ratings.