Floyd Mayweather would own Jake LaMotta and Robinson

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Chicago Tribune and Ring magazine reports (both local) mention that Robinson was very tired in 11th round when he had Docusen in trouble, but couldn't finish him, as his punches lacked power any longer. Docusen was even more tired, and in 15th round was on the verge of exhaustion, but again Ray wasn't able to exploit that.

I didn't say that my bet on the result would be Mayweather the winner vs Robinson. But I certainly see him giving Robinson a LOT of trouble, and expecting a close contested bout, with maybe 2 or 3 points separating the winner from the loser. And if Robinson doesn't come in fully prepared (as it happened with him on multiple occasions even when he didn't have troubles making weight), it can become an upset. I don't see a blow out by Robinson by any means in this matchup.

Seeing just one film of a fighter has it's limits of how it can be extrapolated to his general success. Docusen (somewhat green, of course) had troubles with small lightweight tomato can Paul Reguejo, he clearly lost the bout against the other best welter contender in Burton and barely pulled out a win in a very boring fight (according to both the NYT and the Ring reports), then after Burton dropped out of Top 10, Docusen only earned a draw against him (although one judge slightly favored Docusen, the other two had it even). TKO loss to an underdog previously rated at lightweight shows that either Docusen was broken goods after his courageous efforts vs Robinson, or he wasn't strong enough mentally from the very beginning. It would have been nice to see how he fares against Ike Williams, but Docusen pulled out two days before the fight had to take place, due to illness (in February 1950). He was also selected for 5 boxers elimination tournament that was to produce the challenger for Robinson's welter crown in second half of 1950, but I believe the August loss to a tomato can followed by yet another loss, eliminated him from list of candidates.

 

He recovered and took the rounds I didn't quote, but he got hurt again, and was finished quickly.

 

Senya,

I will say it again for the last time, there is no way that Ray`s punches lacked power in the 11th round. He was throwing hard, accurate and powerful punches for the entire round, just by looking at the film it is clear for all to see. I am not blind nor do I wear glasses, in fact I am watching the entire round at this very moment and you would be hard pressed to find anyone saying that the punches BOTH men were throwing lacked authority.

Both men were indeed tired in the 15th (just forwarded it to the final round on my dvd player), but Ray was still the aggressor and was throwing punches at Docusen who spent a good portion of the round against the ropes or clincing while throwing some combinations in spurts. So while it is clear that both men were tired, it is even more evident that it was more a case of Docusen`s will to hear the final bell than a lack of punching power due to fatigue that led to his hearing the final bell.

As to how a fight between the Floyd and Ray would have unfolded, I never said that he would blow Mayweather ouf of there within the first few rouns because I don`t believe that either. But since we are pitting both men at their respective peaks, well in my humble opinion I think Rays best exceeds Floyds best each time. Add to that that Ray was the naturally bigger fighter, had a slight reach advantage, had hands just as fast if not faster than Floyd, was very quick on his feet and carried very good power in both hands, and it does not bode well for the smaller Mayweather.

To me this is just a matter of common sense, but for others (not implying you) this seems to go right over their heads. Now as for Bernard having trouble with a tomato can, perhaps he wasn`t as up for the fight as he should have whereas his opponent saw it as his chance to cause an upset and gave it his best effort albeit in a losing cause. This happened quite often back then, as many fighters didn`t train as hard for some fights as they did for others, I would chalk this up as being the case in the Reguejo fight.

Now as for Docusen being damaged goods after his fight with Ray, I would disagree with that assessment as he still had some success afterwards, albeit limited. But lets keep in mind that by the time he fought Ray he already had 48 bouts under him, and he was only 21 years old at the time he fought Ray... that`s a lot of mileage for such a young man. Perhaps the Robinson fight took a lot out of him but not to the point that he was finished afterwards, even after the Dawson fight he scored a few good wins so he still had something left.

Speaking of the Dawson fight, I strongly disagree with your assertion that his loss to Dawson was a result of his being mentally weak from the get-go. The man got nailed by a punch he walked into which he never completely recovered from even if he did win the next two rounds (source?), how that equates to being metally weak is beyond me and I have no idea how you came to that concusion. If you manage to fight tooth and nail with Sugar Ray Robinson for 15 hard fought rounds, your not weak mentally I can tell you that.

Anways, this debate has dragged on far too long and frankly I am getting tired of repeating the same things, so I will bow out now for good. You and I see things very differently and it is doubtful if not altogether impossible that we will find common ground here, so lets just agree to disagree and move on. You can have the last word in if you like, but I won`t be replying however as I am done with this thread for the foreseable future. Time to give others the chance to chime in if they like, I have had my fill with this thread.

 

The New York Times
He got up at the count of nine and collided with another volley, but Robinson was so leg weary and tired from the flurry he was unable to finish him.
...
From the eleventh on, Robinson was completely the master. He was dead tired and rapidly losing his speed, but he had enough experience at his command to rest in clinches and take advantage of Docusen's weakening condition.
...
The challenger was completely at the champion's mercy in the fifteenth, but by that time Robinson's punches were feathery.


Ring magazine
Because of Ray's difficulty in making weight, it was felt that the long route would favor the young challenger.
Robinson undeniably was tiring--but, as it so developed, Docusen was wilting even more from the terrific pace.
Robinson pulled his waning forces together at the start of the eleventh to turn loose a blistering assault that swept Docusen into the ropes. Though dazed by Ray's two-fisted attack, Bernie managed to wriggle off the ropes and out to mid-ring. But Ray gave him no time to recover. Moving in fast, the champion whipped across a vicious left hook that caught Docusen flush on the chin and toppled him heavily to the canvas.
Bernie staggered up at the count of nine, and Robinson tore into him with another volley. But Ray apparently had fought himself out in his previous flurry, and he lacked the power to finish his reeling opponent.
For the remainder of the bout, Robinson held the upper hand. Tired and leg-weary though he was, he still held enough in reserve to remain the boss. He gave a good performance and again demonstrated why, weight-for-weight, experts say he is the best fighter in the world.
Docusen continued to fight back gamely, and in the fourteenth his left jabs opened a gash under Robinson's right eye. But Bernie's punches had lost their snap, and he was weakening fast.
In the final round, Docusen was on the verge of exhaustion, but Ray couldn't bring down his courageous rival. There was no doubt of Robinson's victory. The decision was unanimous with the referee and two judges. He had well earned it.


Referee Brightmore scored it 85-65, judge Arthur Oberg 83-67, judge James McManus 81-69. Does this sound like a close win that was pulled out in late rounds?


Docusen didn't have troubles in other fights, despite fighting often, and Reguejo was just so inferior to him and smaller, that it's hard to attribute that to not being up to a fight. To me this is backed up by both first year of his career, and by what happened later.

When you say he scored a few good wins after loss to Dawson, you obviously can only name a win over Larkin as such, but Larkin was 32 years old and at the end of his career (even though he had a winning streak vs inferior opposition).

The source for Dawson fight is is the Ring magazine report. The three Burton fights, Dawson fight, consequential losses to much inferior opposition, suggest that he wasn't tough enough mentally, even though he showed some guts along the way, but not enough to overcome troubles when he faced them.

 

raging bull....you and those of us who know whatr we're talkling about are just wasting our tme at this point trying to answer these repeated posts by the uninformed rabble.

I was glad to see you bring up Bernie Docusen. He was an excellent boxer, noted for great speed and skill. Of course Ray was tired toward the end..the speedy Docusen had him chasing him all through the first part of the fight. A freind of mine whjo saw the fight said for much of the early rounds it was a jabbing contest, with Ray keeping up with the Duke the speedster. I said saw, not read about. As for his decline afterward, he was not unique in not being quite the same after Robinson had to really turn it on to win.

Freddie Dawson was rated in the top ten in both he lightweight and welterweight division. ring magazine. He dropped down to lightweight at one point because he didn't want to fight Sugar George Costner again, and at one time the bigger money was in the lightweight division. He bounced between to two divisions from time to time.

Tommy Bell was an outstanding welterwight. When the title was vacated he was the only one who was willing to fight Robinson for the vacant title.

Now some clowns will come on and show fights that Tommy Bell lost,and lord knows what else, and it will all be irrelavent. I suppose I'll keep reading here as long as the thread stays active, but,like you, I'm not going to post on it anymore. Nothing to add.

Oh hell, before I ride off into the sunset, I'm sure some knuckledragger will say Mayweather's fight with Hatton will "prove" that he could beat either Ray or Jake or both, when of course it proved just the opposite.

 

You may laugh as much as you want, the facts will remain - courageous but losing efforts vs weight-drained Robinson and a dreadful boring and slow majority decision over Burton were the highest point of Docusen's career. He doesn't have anything else on his resume to warrant such praise. Constantino was on the downslide already by the time Docusen beat him, Tippy Larkin was washed up as well (he was last ranked in Top 10 two years prior to meeting with Docusen).

 

Jake would leave Floyd for the dogs. Too hard of a puncher, too big of a man, and too good of a chin.

 

Yeah, LaMotta a hard puncher, dream on.

 

LaMotta would be the biggest man Floyd had ever faced, could he beat the Bull? Not sure, LaMotta was pretty much a MW. I think perhaps Floyd would win a decision, but if Lamotta came in like he did against Ray the 2nd time, Floyd is going down, Lamotta had a ridiculous chin and was HUGE, he pressured alot. Despite his negative image as nothing but a raw slugger, I'd say he was more talented than Hatton and perhaps equal with Castillo. Both those fighters(especially Castillo the first time) gave PBF hell, The Bull is larger and far stronger than both men. It would be hell for PBF.
BUT Floyd definitley has the skills.


Against SRR....SRR was just as fast as PBF, had a cast iron chin that PBF wouldn't break, a tonne of heart, better movement, faster movement, better combinations, also SRR would be the 2nd biggest man PBF would ever face(after Lamotta) and of course Ray would be the hardest puncher PBF had ever fought. :nod

The biggest downfall of SRR was his leaky defense that Floyd with his equal speed would definitley exploit. But if you look at it, for the few things that Floyd was better at than SRR (defence primarily) SRR was better than ALOT more things than floyd.

SRR takes it by UD. I don't see PBF ever being knocked out.

 

I had to adress this statement.
Beating the man does not make you become the man.