Floyd Patterson V Cleveland Williams?

[Paris Hilton Text] That's hot. [/Paris Hilton Text]

 

I’m not going to sit here and explain how getting shot, dying six times on the operating table, losing ten feet of intestines, and suffering permanent partial paralysis is far worse than a supposed “bad back” — especially one someone recovered from in under two months.

He'd just beaten top ten contender Oscar Bonavena, and looked much much better than Williams did against Ali.

That’s an oft-repeated myth that doesn’t hold up under scrutiny. Patterson actually evaded a lot of blows against Liston and made him miss quite a bit. He also got some decent body work in.

The issue is, he simply couldn't handle the punches once they started getting through. Whereas Williams not only did at times, but often gave back than he got. Williams defense' wasn't nearly as good as Patterson's so he ate a lot more punches, yet still held up much better.

If Williams durability was as bad as you make it out to be, Johnny Holman would've walked through him. Though he'd seen better days, Holman was a feared puncher, and just ranked number 3 the previous year.

A shot Williams also went the distance with George Chuvalo — something Quarry didn’t manage. If his chin was really that suspect, he wouldn’t have survived that kind of punishment, in his prime, let alone at that stage in his career. Yet from the mid-1950s until the shooting, only Liston ever stopped him.

Not only is this untrue, but it means absolutely nothing in terms of durability.

I look at it this way. I don't see Patterson taking the same punches Williams did and remain standing in his pre gunshot KO losses to Satterfield and Liston.

We already know he couldn't handle the amount of punishment Williams laid out on Liston.

Could he beat Satterfield? Probably — he had a stronger amateur background and more pro experience than the green, 20-year-old Williams who took that fight on short notice. But that’s not about durability — that’s about skill and experience. Patterson might have evaded the punches Williams couldn’t. But could he have stood up to them if they'd actually landed? Highly unlikely.

"he's got plenty of heart and that's the big thing. I hit him some real hard punches in the second round and he just came back"

Source: https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-miami-news/51091695/

"In the second round he stood up under two booming right hands from Satterfield." Source: https://www.newspapers.com/clip/53148333/the-miami-news

On the other hand, I think Williams could somehow manage to stay on his fight against a guy making his pro debut.

And he would never in a million years have been dropped by the likes of Roy Harris — who, by his own admission, wasn’t as good as his stablemate, Williams.

 

Ron Lyle died on the operating table but went to be great HW contender and turned pro very late, and still no one made excuses for his injury.

Excuses are made only for Williams...because he fought Liston, and Liston fans doesn't like his resume being insulted by downgradin his oponents

 

The point is he didn't exactly get yanked from the operating table and thrown against Ali. He had his circumstances and Patterson had his.

He certainly looked a lot better against Ali than Williams did, agreed.

The only kind of fighter John Holman walks through is the kind who is either eons past his best or struggling with an advanced degenerative neurological disease, which is how he managed to rank at no.4 in 1955 by beating Ezzard Charles, to whom he lost to immediately after.
Patterson also went the distance with Chuvalo. As for Quarry, that was a suspect stoppage, and even if it was a reasonable one, the guy still has wins over Lyle, Shavers and Foster to hang his hat on.
I am not disparaging Williams for getting blown out, I'm only pointing out that getting blown out was his habit whenever he stepped up. A draw with Machen and a win over John Holman isn't doing much to offset his losses.
Why should I believe Satterfield, Foster and Ali don't finish Williams in the time frame he fought Liston?

I'm not disputing Patterson's embarrassing performances against cherry picks, and neither do I doubt Williams was better than Roy Harris.

 

No, he didn't get yanked from the operating table but he was quite clearly a shell of himself compared to his pre-shooting form. Ali himself confirmed as such and said he would've wanted to fight a prime Williams.

"there's nothing much left now is there"

"It bothers me to fight him when he's like that"

This comparison to Patterson's back issue is quite frankly absurd.

Completely untrue. Holman has a multitude of top ten wins so it's absolutely not true that the "only kind of fighter John Holman walks through is the kind who is either eons past his best or struggling with an advanced degenerative neurological disease" He was a feared puncher for good reason.

Quarry's wins over the aforementioned three have nothing to do with the point I was making, not sure why you brought it up. But no, that stoppage was not suspect. Quarry was just so damn hittable, Chuvalo started getting to him. Hit him hard enough to make him mistime his count.

Name all these times he got blown out whenever stepping up anywhere close to his prime. He didn't get blown out when he fought Machen, Daniels either time, Terrell either time, nor Miteff.

Ali very well might, but I suspect it'd be similar to Williams' fight with Machen, except with Ali being the clear victor.


Unlike in his actual fight, Satterfield wouldn’t be up against a 20-year-old, raw, last-minute substitute. He’d be facing a seasoned, fully developed, and far more durable opponent. The idea that Satterfield—who was clearly inferior to Liston in every respect—would somehow take the same punches Liston did and survive is just not realistic. He wouldn’t make it out. And he absolutely would take those punches. He doesn't have the style, skills, nor defensive ability not to.

As for Foster, can you name a single top tenner he knocked out? As a matter of fact, can you name a single top tenner he recorded any type of win against?

Precisely my point.

 

The point of the comparison was to take both guys when they were compromised and see how they fared. Whatever William's complications where he went on to fight for five more years after his title shot? For Patterson that was the end of the line. I won't belabor the point though, I can accept that Patterson lasted longer because of superior defense and mobility. However, even if it were the case that Williams had a somewhat better chin than Floyd, Floyd would still possess the attributes that compensated for that, his aforementioned mobility and defense.

He had a lot of names on his record, the ones he did beat who recently held rankings were Charles, who was heavily compromised to say the least, let alone whatever ability he did have being hacked off by Marciano, and Satterfield, who had twice knocked Holman out himself. Elmer Ray, Brion, Turkey Thompson, those guys were at the end of the line and couldn't sniff the top ten when Holman got to them.
It does appear that the only fighter Holman walks through is one whose ability's been grinded out of him through years and years of fighting.

They have to do with the point I'm making though, Quarry KO loss from getting up a second too late are offset by going toe to toe with Patterson, Lyle, Shavers and Foster and not being taken out (even being victorious), which is the same case for Patterson and his fights with Johansen and Quarry.

Lasting the distance against Machen and Terrel doesn't prove a sturdy chin. Miteff and Daniels had 26 knockout wins between them in a combined 27 years of pro boxing, nevermind that neither cracked the top five or that both had passed their ranking period when Williams smashed them, albeit not far past that period.

I don't see Williams going the distance with that version of Ali, at all. I think he is stopped within six rounds. As for Satterfield, he doesn't have to be better than Liston to repeat a quick KO, he just needs to catch Williams in an exchange the right way and he gets the job done, before Williams knocks him out instead.

Nope, all has-beens by the looks of it. I'm just not convinced that prime Williams is such a cut above Foster that there isn't as good a chance he gets stopped as there is of him doing to Foster.

A point we already agree on seeing as in my initial post I mentioned that Patterson could need a rematch to overcome Williams. I never made a confident claim that he would dominate in this match up.

 

I have nothing to add, excellent.

 

I pick Patterson. He was just better. A lot gets made of his chin because he was knocked down so many times but whats ignored is how many times he got up and the fact that a lot of those knockdowns were balance shots because he had a tendency to square up and leap in. His kangaroo punch was almost as famous as his peek a boo style in his heyday.

 

The problem with comparing these two is like the stats of a major league player with a minor league player. The stats are from different levels of competition.

In 1953, when he was 18, Patterson defeated Wes Bascom, who had been top five rated the year before. In 1954, at 19, Patterson defeated the #4 rated heavyweight at the time, Jimmy Slade. In 1972, at 37, Patterson defeated the #4 rated heavyweight at the time, Oscar Bonavena. Williams never in about a 25 year career defeated a man ranked as high as #4 at the time he fought him. Many have mentioned that when young or in his "prime" Williams was only stopped by top punchers Satterfield and Liston. But Patterson was only ever stopped by Johansson, Liston, and Ali. Williams' best effort was a draw with Machen. Patterson defeated him decisively.

So the problem is there is no evidence to support Williams. Critics could argue that because Williams rarely faced top competition, there is no real evidence he might not do better than expected. I can't argue with that, but an argument from a lack of evidence to a conclusion is not for me a convincing argument.

I come down on the side of the side of the man proven against top competition. Patterson.

 

Comparing Patterson’s minor back injury to Williams getting shot dying six times, losing ten feet of his intestines, and enough blood to kill six men is like comparing a sprained ankle to being hit by a train.

Right, and you think that proves what? Williams fought on because he had no choice — he needed the money. Doesn’t mean he was anywhere near the same fighter after getting shot and clinically dead six times. Patterson retired because he had the option. Longevity doesn’t equal health, and surviving isn’t the same as being whole.

Not sure, what you mean. Lasted longer in what sense? Against Ali? Patterson probably had the better chin at that point.

I'm admittedly not well versed into Holman's career, but I do know he beat a multitude of top ten fighters and was ranked #4 at one point.

Fair point regarding Quarry, but I'll add that Patterson was dropped and hurt badly in two out of his three fights with Ingo and in all honestly, probably would've lost the trilogy bout had Ingo come in shape.

This was the comment you made.
"I am not disparaging Williams for getting blown out, I'm only pointing out that getting blown out was his habit whenever he stepped up. A draw with Machen and a win over John Holman isn't doing much to offset his losses"
I was pointing out, that it's not only is it untrue he was getting blown out in his prime, whenever he stepped up, but he actually did quite well against the ranked opponents he did face, and only one ever blew him out.

. Now you're moving the goalposts by downplaying those results and arguing those opponents "weren’t hard enough punchers to test his chin." That’s not the same argument you started with.

This isn't true. Daniels, and Miteff were ranked in all of their bouts against Williams.

Ali had all of one stoppage within 6 rounds since winning the title until his exile (excluding the Liston fiasco rematch)

In order for Satterfield to catch Williams “the right way,” he’d have to eat some shots in the process—and he already did that against a raw, last-minute version of Williams. He admitted himself that he was hurt and losing on the cards before landing the finish.

He’s not stopping Williams faster than Sonny did. He actually took longer to stop a greener, less-developed Williams than Liston did. And unlike Liston, Satterfield didn’t have the same durability, defense, or physical strength to keep Williams off him. Sure, he had power—but if Liston couldn’t hold Williams off with power alone, it’s hard to see Satterfield doing it. More likely, he ends up taking even more punishment than Williams did.

Ridiculous. Williams was by far the more proven puncher and would fight anyone around. Foster's record was so padded; he could've been a mattress salesman. He avoided anyone with a pulse until Quarry.

A shot 36 year old Williams also ruptured his ear drum in their first fight, and hurt Foster badly in their second, and was on the winning end of a slugfest before Foster had to dig down deep and put an end to things.

I'm not even saying Williams wins here. I was only disputing that Patterson would have the durability advantage. Truth be told, I don't know. I agree, they'd probably need a series to settle things. I used to favor Williams in the fact that he was much better than anyone Patterson defended against and was more similar to Liston who blew Patterson away but I'm not so sure anymore. Williams while faster, wasn't quite as skilled as Liston, and I'm not sure how he would fare, being on the wrong end of a hand speed advantage. He usually had this advantage in his fights. This time Patterson would be the faster man. Patterson is also far more proven. I really have zero issues with anyone picking either tbh.

 

Williams faced a prime Machen.

Machen wasn't even close to his best against Patterson. He was never the same upon his return from the mental institution, and Patterson (or rather D'amato) didn't seem to want any part of him when he was champion. Even if I do think, Patterson still beats a prime Machen decisively which William was unable to do, it has sweet **** all to do with how Patterson and Willams fare with each other.

Satterfield isn’t really relevant here unless we’re matching Patterson against the 20-year-old, last-minute substitute version of Williams—in which case, sure, I’d favor Patterson. But if we’re talking about them at their best, Williams was only stopped by Liston in his prime, while Patterson was stopped by Ali, Liston, and Ingemar Johansson during his own.

 

I simply see it as another terrible stylistic match up for Floyd .. Williams started too fast , hit too hard and was so much bigger ..

 

But isnt his point that Patterson wasnt prime for Ali (certainly going into the fight with a bad back is going to be a handicap) and that Williams certainly never gave any indication that if he hadnt been so protected he wouldnt have been stopped by better competition?

I just find it suspect that Williams is a fast starter and a hard puncher when hes fighting weak competition but then whenever he steps against anyone even remotely near the top ten (which was rare for him) his power evaporates and he struggles and then his record is very very light when it comes to top competition. That to me sounds like a limited guy who is being marketed as a killer, protected, and then claiming hes being ducked. Certainly when he stepped up there was no evidence that the top fighters needed to fear him.

 

Williams never beat Chuvalo, Machen, Ingemar, Bonavena and London, Patterson beat them all, he was higher level than Williams whos only notable wins were win over Terrell and draw with Machen.

Unlike Williams, Patterson was never stopped by LHW with weak chin.

 

The question is not who was a better fighter but how they match up H2H ..