Floyd Patterson V Cleveland Williams?

I think Floyd's speed and power and sheer heart see him through this. He probably stops Cleve' somewhere near round ten. I think Floyd is a criminally underrated fighter. Perhaps not many fighters are as unfairly defined by their losses as Patterson.

 

Patterson-London was two weeks AFTER Liston knocked out Williams.0

Patterson-London was two weeks after Liston knocked out Williams. At the time neither Williams or London were rated in the top ten but London had just been bumped out by Cooper after a tough 15 rounder which saw Cooper down and springing leaks. London was chosen as a tuneup opponent for Patterson because Cooper reneged on a contract with Patterson by demanding double his agreed upon price. Choosing between London and Williams in mid 1959 was six of one, half dozen of the other.

You say so no honest argument can be made that Williams was less qualified than London, McNeeley, and Rademacher. Maybe, maybe not. But no honest argument can be made that he was either. Nobody was offering Patterson the money he made against McNeeley to fight Rademacher. London had the better recent performances than Williams. And McNeeley was a gimme taken when Patterson and Liston had already agreed to face one another. Comparing McNeeley's record to Williams' in the leadup to the Patterson fight doesnt exactly show a wide gap in talent between the opponents of the two fighters.

In fact, if you look at Williams fight against Ben Marshall, his first fight after losing to Liston the second time, the newspapers said it was the smallest audience in Dallas boxing history. A home state boy comes to Dallas for his first time after one of the biggest fights of his career and nobody showed up. People werent exactly beating down the doors to see Williams fight.

Acting like Floyd was ducking punchers when he faced several punchers who were far more proven than Williams and its Williams record which is almost completely devoid of good competition is a strange way to argue for Williams. Can we agree that Floyd fought far more rated fighters than Williams, fought far more punchers than Williams, and beat far more rated fighters and punchers than Williams? If we cant agree on that then I would say you are using an "alternative" set of "facts".

 

Calling it “spin” doesn’t make it so. Unlike you, I don’t need to twist facts to suit a narrative. You claim Terrell was green and unrated when he fought Williams — yet conveniently ignore that Williams was even younger, also unrated, and less experienced when he faced Satterfield. And while Terrell would be ranked within a few months of fighting Williams, Williams himself was still years away from cracking the rankings when he took on Satterfield. That context somehow vanishes when it's inconvenient for your argument — just like when you tried to downplay Terrell’s amateur credentials by citing BoxRec’s incomplete listing of three bouts, while ignoring the Golden Gloves wins and years of competitive experience.
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So spare me the “impartial observer” routine — your selectiveness is obvious.

Here's what Teddy Brenner, the matchmaker for the Patterson–Machen fight, said about Machen’s condition that night:

"He had no zip, no reflexes. He was just pushing his punches. He had nothing… He wasn’t even 25 percent of the old Machen. He looked like a guy sleepwalking… It wouldn’t have drawn more than $15,000 or $20,000 anywhere in the U.S. Patterson says he wants to earn a title shot — I say he should fight someone like Doug Jones or Cleveland Williams."

That doesn’t sound like a fighter at his peak. And the writer of the article even notes the fight came seven years too late — and that Patterson had avoided Machen in the past. (Source)

You also point to Machen’s #2 rating at the time as if that proves he was still elite. But much like Williams being ranked #3 after his shooting, Machen’s ranking had more to do with his earlier reputation than his recent performances. He beat a string of forgettable opponents during his comeback, and the press gave him the benefit of the doubt — not because he looked impressive, but because of who he used to be.

"as there is no evidence he was ever better than Patterson. "

Not sure how you missed this part of my post:
"Even if I do think, Patterson still beats a prime Machen decisively which William was unable to do, it has sweet **** all to do with how Patterson and Williams fare with each other."

Patterson doesn’t get credit for a win he might have gotten against a guy he very clearly avoided when Machen was still dangerous. You don’t get to rewrite history and hand out retroactive victories to justify ducking someone in their prime. Beating a diminished version of a fighter years later doesn’t erase that.

 

And you dont get to pretend Williams would have knocked out everybody he never faced simply because his management avoided them.

In the late 1960s when Williams was being promoted on having the greatest KO record in boxing his own hometown newspaper published an article calling his record into question because of the frequency that it features tomato cans. If his own hometown paper is calling his record fluff then its fluff.

You are entitled to believe that Williams would have beaten Patterson. Its your opinion. But I dont think Im the only one who can see that you are willing to give Williams every excuse and every benefit of the doubt while holding every other fighter of the era to a much less forgiving set of standards.

 

He can't get over the fact that Ingo knocked Machen in 1st round and Patterson beat him, while his jero Williams went to draw.

He quoted the matchmaker of the fight, a "matchmaker, " not the trainer, ex oponent or coach of Machen.

Machen won 5 fights before facing Patterson, which means he was still in his prime.

Machen was past prime by the time he fought Quarry and Frazier, but the one who faced Patterson was in his prime or very close to his prime.

Also, Floyd actually scored some good wins unlike Williams, Floyd did better than Williams against Ali and beat Chuvalo who beat Williams.

I'll pick Patterson over Williams in dangerous fight to win by UD or late TKO.

 

You do understand that if Patterson had offered Williams a title shot on the date he was fighting London, that Cleveland would have taken that fight instead of fighting Liston, right? The fight wasn’t made on 13 days notice, lol. There would have been training camps and such.

We disagree on Williams’ resume, especially as it compares to McNeeley, London and Rademacher (remember him?). London was 2-2 in his last four fights. Coming off a loss. And yet he gets a title shot.

It’s an odd hill to die on for me that you seem adamant that Patterson should not have, under any circumstances, faced Williams … while trying to justify his bouts for McNeeley, London and, I gather, Rademacher? It’s just not intellectually honest.

 

Im not dying on any hill, I just dont see Williams being a better gimme than any other gimme of the 50s and 60s.

 

Agreed.

 

Terrell and Machen found him not to be a gimme. A few rising contenders with good records also.

Does Patterson have a better resume than Williams? For sure. Was he a better fighter? Yes. Does that mean Floyd would beat him? No, it doesn’t.

Styles make fights. Patterson was packing glass and Cleveland was throwing grenades. Anything could have happened.

I wish they would have fought. I’m willing to pass on Patterson vs. Amateur, Patterson vs. English Toffee and Patterson vs. Got Knocked Down 10 Times (or was it 13) Peter McNeeley’s Dad to get a much more interesting matchup like this.

 

I wish Williams would have fought a lot of guys. He didnt. You think he would beaten Patterson. I think if Williams fought more talent he would have lost a lot more like he did every time he stepped up.

 

Again, you dump on him after you defended Tom McNeeley and Brian London as title challengers. Each was a 10:1 underdog and proved that was generous.

I don’t get the hate for Williams, who at least beat Terrell and fought to a draw with Machen while knocking off a few rising prospects.

What’s your opinion on Rademacher?

 

From near the start of Patterson's first championship reign he was criticized for the quality of his opponents. In the press it was a constant refrain starting with his defenses against Hurricane Jackson and Rademacher. By matching his guy against the likes of those two and later, London, Harris and McNeeley, Cus damaged Floyd's reputation. But Cus needed money and wanted Floyd to enrich himself and keep his title.

Cus never believed Floyd had a chance against Liston. According to Mike Tyson, Cus was convinced Patterson had zero chance of beating Sonny, even "on the best day of his life".

In 1958-59 the pressure was on Floyd to fight Machen and Folley. After Liston beat Williams twice and then both Machen and Folley, talk of Patterson's cowardice reached a crescendo. Liston understood he could pressure Floyd by calling his courage and manhood into question. Patterson had pride. Some called it "wounded pride".

I think the most insightful sentence ever written about Patterson was A.J. Liebling's observation that he "craved admiration". The only way to satisfy that craving was to face Liston. Cleveland Williams wasn't even in the picture, nor should he have been.

 

FWIW, as a contemporary of Williams, Liston perceived that Cleveland was being avoided by other contenders - Liston being well attuned to having been avoided himself.

If Williams’ was being so carefully managed, that might’ve steered him away from ever being matched against Liston - let alone rematching Liston not too long after.

 

Chuvalobeat a post shot Williams who was, 38 years old and nearly20lbs above his best weight.Comparing the Williams who fought Terrell and Liston with remnants of him that fought Ali is also total BS .

 

Nobody hates Williams. Dont accuse people who see him as anything special of hating him.

My opinion of Rademacher is that he brought infinitely more money to the table than Cleveland Williams in 1957. Particularly since NOBODY was talking about a Patterson-Williams match in 1957.