Floyd Patterson V Cleveland Williams?

Chuvalo was 34 and fighting ten pounds above his best weight. He wasnt exactly a spring chicken.

Williams' fans always use his shooting as an excuse for him. If we just pretend his entire career after the shooting never happened, what makes him so special? Beating a young Terrell? Drawing with Eddie Machen in his home town? Thats not the stuff of legends.

 

When Williams fought Liston Liston hadnt yet beaten Folley, Machen, Harris, or Patterson. In fact, just shortly before Williams signed to fight Liston Liston fought Bert Whitehurst on television. After the fight the announcer made the comment that Liston wasnt ready for the best of the division yet. So lets not retroactively ascribe to Liston the reputation that he would later attain.

 

Again where is your proof that Williams avoided anyone? His camp had made multiple offers to guys like Doug Jones, George Chuvalo, Floyd Patterson, etc.

And if he was supposedly afraid of fighting Nino Valdes or Mike DeJohn, why did he face — and beat — the men who defeated them? Take Alex Miteff and Alonzo Johnson, for example. Both beat Valdes. Here’s how Williams did against them:


"Cleveland (Big Cat) Williams, who shattered the title hopes of 7th ranked Alex Miteff with a 5th round TKO, set up a howl today for a shot at champion Floyd Patterson. If Williams ever looked as though he deserved a shot at the title, it was Tuesday night. He took command of the fight from Miteff from the start, opened a bad cut over his left eye in the 2nd, floored him for eight counts in the 3rd and 4th, and was beating him badly when referee Ernie Taylor mercifully ended it 1:32 deep into the 5th." -United Press International

"Cleveland (Big Cat) Williams, who did to Alonzo Johnson what 29 other opponents couldn't do, said today he wants to fight 2nd ranked heavyweight Eddie Machen next. Johnson, 195, stepped into the ring last night without having been knocked out in his previous 29 fights. Williams, 210, took just two minutes and twenty six seconds to wipe that away. Johnson never landed a blow. Williams put him away with a flashing left hook." -United Press International

He also fought Machen and Daniels who both wiped the floor with Dejohn.
Here's how Dejohn faired against Billy ****ing Daniels "A right to the chin in the 1st round, sent DeJohn down for a nine-count. He was floored for a 2nd time for no-count, again, in the 1st round. In the 3rd round, another right to the chine put him down for another nine-count. A right uppercut floored DeJohn for a 4th time in the 9th round, he was subsequently put down for a fifth time in the same round by a left hook; both times for nine counts. The 10th round had barely begun, when Daniels floored DeJohn for a sixth time, on a right hand. After this knockdown, the referee stopped the contest.

Also, seriously — why the **** would Williams step into the ring with Sonny ****ing Liston of all people if he was supposedly ducking guys like Valdes or DeJohn? Liston had beaten both of them in convincing fashion. And not only did Williams fight him once, he fought him again, even after suffering a brutal loss the first time. That’s not the behavior of someone avoiding dangerous opponents — that’s a fighter who was willing to take on the toughest guy out there twice.

Viscusi had made multiple complaints in securing names for Williams Here's a contemporary news article right before his first fight with Liston. "To hear Viscusi tell it, Nobody among the heavyweights will fight Cleveland Williams or "Charles (Sonny) Liston, so they will fight each other here Wednesday " https://www.newspapers.com/clip/51391573/hartford-courant/

The knockout had the crowd' in stitches. Curley got knocked so high in the air he was horizontal when he crashed to the floor. Also unconscious. Another 'couple of feet and he might have escaped the gravitational and been up there yet. He was out for 20 minutes. They took him to the hospital where they shone lights in his eyes and "recommended a good night's sleep. Curley had already had one. When he got back to L.A.. he thought perhaps he had a bad head cold because every time he blew his nose it brought blood. He had the sensation his eyes were trying to pull out of his head.

He called on his doctor, Wells E. A. Forde, who noticed little things like the fact the inside of Curley's right shoe was wearing out faster than the outside. For some reason, Curley was dragging his right foot.

He sent him to the Queen of Angels Hospital where the reason turned out to be a blood clot on the brain.

Like a lot of others, before him. Curley Lee, occupation prizefighter, was the victim of an industrial accidental - a right to the jaw.

The Doctor Was Stunned It is Curley's recollection the sovereign state of Texas paid for the electro-encephalogram which turned up "disorganization and slowing in the left parietal area a focal 'disturbance in the left parietal area." But the treatment consisted of the prescription: "You better take it easy, kid and, by the way, get used to that headache." Barely .18 months later, Dr. Forde was shocked when he picked up a paper to see where Curley was booked in for a fight at the Olympic Auditorium. He fired off a letter to the boxing commission.

"To me it would seem unthinkable that any consideration should ever be given him for subsequent boxing." He recommended a simple test: "Shake hands with Curley," he urged. His position was, a man too weak to shake hands shouldn't be asked to punch with them. The commission denied Curley a license. Curley went back to stacking potatoes. But lately, even this has become difficult. Curley has taken to suffering blackouts on the street and long red-light trips to receiving hospital where attendants first suspect drunkenness and then detect a form of epilepsy. Either way, there's not much they can do about it.

Curley is just another piece of boxing's flotsam. The walking wounded you see in the foyer any arena selling programs, cadging tickets or borrowing money. It's difficult to find any. one to take the responsibility. But I noticed in the paper the other day where the manager Cleveland Williams was complaining that the top name fighters in the country "would rather go hungry than get in the ring, with my fighter." I should hope so. It's better to be hungry than fed intravenously.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?...AIBAJ&sjid=HukDAAAAIBAJ&pg=7115,4435604&hl=en

 

So we are taking the word of Williams' manager? This wouldnt be the first time or last time a fighters manager has tried to get publicity for his fighter by claiming he was being ducked. Its probably happened somewhere on the order of twenty thousand times.

Fawning over a knockout of Curley Lee is pathetic. Lee was little more than a light heavyweight who had never beaten anyone and had never been 10 rounds and had taken the fight on short notice. He had only been fighting for two years and was outweighed by 30 pounds. Yet the Houston Post called Williams "a bleeding, bewildered disappointment" and had Lee leading by two rounds going into the tenth when Lee was stopped. That fight was on national television for all to see and thats the guy everyone was supposedly ducking.

All of the other fighters you listed were nothing special. Williams was one of 8 fighters to stop Miteff and he wasnt the first either or even the most impressive. He was the first of five to stop Alonzo Johnson who had lost to almost everyone worth mentioning he had faced. He was one of the twenty one fighters to beat Billy Daniels.

 

True, Rony Lyle started boxing in his late 20s while having an injury from prison when he was stabbed and died on the operating table, and went on to become a pro in his late 20s, never reaching prime because of injury and late start, unlike Williams, and yet no one makes excuses for Lyle.

Ron had a later start and started already injured, unlike Williams, and no one made excuses for him, just because he did not fight Liston.

 

The idea that Williams was ever a protected fighter doesn't stand up. Aside from fighting Liston and Machen, he signed to fight Harold Johnson in 1960 (Johnson pulled out injured) and accepted an offer to fight Patterson at Madison Square Garden in 1964 (Patterson went to Sweden to fight Eddie Machen instead).

The trouble Williams's managers had getting name opponents into the ring with him is well documented. In the late 50s Lou Viscusi openly dangled a match with Roy Harris as a reward for a contender who could beat Williams (very few takers). When Hugh Benbow and Bud Adams took over in 1963, they started throwing around big money offers such as $10,000 to Cassius Clay for every round he could last against Williams (in fairness I doubt that clause would have made it into the final contract) and $50,000 for #1 ranked Doug Jones. Again, no takers.

This is what it comes down to with Williams. People who criticise him make the valid point that he doesn't have a long list of wins against ranked opposition, but against the men he did fight he always performed like the elite contender he was. Against fringe contenders like Miteff, Daniels and Rischer, he dominated. Against fellow elites like Machen and Terrell, he fought on level terms. The one time he genuinely came up short was against Liston. This is why to talk him down it's necessary to keep bringing up a loss he suffered when he was a 20 year old prospect who stepped in to fight on 2 days' notice, or else the losses he suffered when he was old and shot.

 

Well documented by who? Because his manager kept shouting that nobody would fight him and he was quoted? Managers say that all the time.

Everyone keeps making this big deal about him facing Liston but when he fought Liston the first time Liston was a relative nobody. When he fought him the second time the hope was that in his hometown he could improve upon the early success he had in the first fight. After the second fight Bill Gore who trained Williams said Williams would never be able to beat Liston.

Patterson fought Machen because he was offered more money to fight a higher rated opponent. As a contender your only job is to climb the ladder. So pretending Patterson was afraid of Williams because he chose to fight a higher rated opponent got a draw with Williams in Williams hometown for more money is a strange debate tactic.

The Houston papers wrote numerous articles about how the story of Williams life was that he was never rated high enough or able to bring enough money to the table to get anyone to consider him as an opponent. How do you say he was ducked by everyone but admit that Liston fought him, Machen fought him, Johnson signed to fight him but pulled out with an injury, Terrell fought him twice and agreed to defend his title against him. Zora Folley was present at the Liston-Williams fight to prepare to fight the winner. Liston won and Folley fought him. Had Williams not gotten caught drunk driving going 80 miles an hour and then when arrested tried to jump out of the moving vehicle because by his own admission he was afraid what Benbow would do if he found out and then assaulted the police officer he would have gotten his title shot for the paper title that Terrell had. Had he won that, which is no given, he would have likely gotten an earlier opportunity to get knocked out by Ali. Hugh Benbow told me himself that Williams was a drunk and headcase that he wasted a fortune on. The Houston papers talked frequently about Williams lacked heart and that if they could put Harris' heart in Williams body Viscusi would actually have a top contender.

He hardly dominated Daniels. That fight was extremely close. His fight with Curly Lee was extremely close. Rischer was a guy who BEFORE he ever fought Williams went 1-1-3 against Archie Moores sparring partner Howard King. He had been beaten by everyone with a pulse. Lets not pretend because he briefly found his way into the rankings at some point in his career that he was a "contender". All of the fighters everyone lists to build Williams up and saying he dominated them were pretty weak competition. Even Terrell and Machen werent all time greats they were just solid contenders of the day. Getting a draw over Eddie Machen in your hometown is like losing anywhere else and if your best win is a stoppage over a young Ernie Terrell then dont pretend the guy is anything more than just another B/C level fighter of the era.

We could debate this all day but its getting boring. Some people are going to believe Williams was the terminator. Fair enough. I dont.

 

You’re saying that Liston didn’t have the rep. of a fast rising contender with a formidable punch prior to fighting Williams? Totally disagree.

For one fight, Liston had already destroyed Wayne Bethea in stunning, completely unprecedented and never to be repeated fashion - an unmistakable signal of elite skills and power - a clear warning and heads up to the rest of the division.

The claim of Liston having no rep. also doesn’t speak for the fact that in the face of Williams himself, Liston again, clearly displayed his arsenal at its very best - and Williams still rematched Sonny despite the ultimately emphatic KO loss in fight 1.

I think that you are in fact incorrectly attempting to retroactively dismiss the obvious and deserved bonafides of Liston as at the times he fought Williams in order to support the claim that Williams was being carefully managed.

Certainly, D’Amato and Patterson weren’t under any such delusions re Liston’s worth.

One might also claim that victim blaming is in play - in so far as highlighting a lack of certain names on Williams’ record - attributing avoidance on Williams rather than the avoidance being on the part of the missing fighters in question.

Look at the top 10 during Patterson’s reign and the ranked fighters who themselves somehow didn’t cross section with so many other contenders - guys like Cooper and London (and/or their management) made it clear that Liston, for one, was someone they would never face.

Patterson’s title run was a dark reign for suspect rankings and blatant avoidance - starting at the top and flowing down through the “so called” contenders for the title and their convenient rankings.

The primary point also was that Liston himself said that Williams was being avoided in and around the times that Liston fought him.

That’s a contemporaneous observation, not retroactively applied. And again, Liston himself knew all about being avoided.

 

Hi Pugguy.
A neat and precise, also polite ( you know I like that ) breakdown of Liston, his reputation, and the lead up to the Williams fight, that would be hard to counter, by any fair minded poster, and I would like to think Rocky is such a poster, as for Cooper fighting Liston this from Jim Wicks " I wouldnt let Cooper share the same town as Liston, let alone ring " nuff said.
stay safe buddy, chat soon.
Mike.

 

How many ranked contenders had Liston beaten when he fought Williams?

 

I’d have to check…meanwhile, you’ve failed to address all other counterpoints.

Isolated and cherry picked Q and As without full address don’t make for a rounded and equitable counter arguments.

Remember, the claim is that Williams was carefully managed - and I think I have clearly proven that was not the case in respect of BOTH his matches vs Liston - the crux point that you’re veering away from.

 

Hed faced one contender, Mike DeJohn. The Liston Williams fought was not the Liston that had cleaned out the division when he fought Patterson.

I think the previous poster who said that people are so high on Williams because it makes Liston look better are on to something.

 

Why would Vicusi lie? Where’s your evidence? You’re the one claiming Williams’ management avoided certain fighters — so back it up. Show me actual quotes or documented examples where fighters said, “We tried to fight Williams but were turned down.”

As for the Curley Lee fight, nobody’s “fawning” over it, clown. I brought it up because of what Vicusi said afterward — that top contenders would rather go hungry than face Williams. That directly undercuts your claim that his management was the one doing the ducking.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but were they one of the judges? No? Then their opinion doesn’t matter. Williams was ahead on the official cards. Media spin doesn't change the result much as you'd like to believe otherwise.

Finally, you said Williams ducked guys like Valdez and DeJohn. I pointed out he fought and beat the men who beat them. Now suddenly your argument changes to “Well, those guys weren’t that good anyway lolz.”

That’s a textbook strawman. You're shifting goalposts because the original claim doesn’t hold up.

 

I do remember from 65 years ago -- Jeez how that sounds -- Liston complaining that nobody else would fight Williams but he was expected to do so.

 

If you cant be civil and discuss without calling people names Ill consider that your admission that your argument is weak and say good day to you. I hope you find more in life than getting so worked up that someone doesnt share your opinion about a boxer.