Floyd Patterson V Cleveland Williams?

The Liston who KO’d Williams the first time around was the same Liston who Cleve fought again, Cleve being the ducky dodger that he was.

The Williams fight didn’t precede Liston’s 59/60 tear - he was very much part of it.

As to other qualifications - there’s a few fights that attest to how good Liston was.

I guess people exaggerate the worth of both Machen and Folley to bolster Sonny also - two contenders that weren’t even worthy of Patterson’s consideration.

Oh, what the hell, throw Floyd into that bin also, just as Sonny did to a cop - then we don’t have to hear the boring go to of how Liston poleaxed him twice in the first round. Pffftt!

Again, veering from the counters to the claim that Williams was carefully managed.

The Liston fights clearly suggest otherwise - and Liston himself said other contenders were avoiding The Big Cat as at the time.

From Satts in ‘54 to Liston in ‘59, Williams went undefeated. And, excluding the Liston fights, from ‘54 on through to being shot in ‘64, no one else knocked Williams out as Liston did.

No, I don’t think anyone is elevating Williams beyond what is fair.

 

It's true that Williams was never the elite heavy some people thought he was. But he was a scary opponent that nobody was eager to fight. The 1959 and '60 Liston vs Williams bouts were considered major tests for Liston. It was after those two bouts that Liston's reputation really took off. I give Folley a lot of credit for fighting Sonny when Zora was top contender. Then when Sonny knocked Zora unconscious in just three rounds the boxing world knew who was the dominant heavyweight of the day. Everyone knew. He'd beaten all the best except Patterson, and Floyd continued to duck him.

 

Thanks New. And, for my purposes, I will say that your recall is perfect - which it actually is.

 

Spare me the sanctimony. You spent multiple posts calling my points pathetic, accusing me of “pretending,” and twisting what I said — and now you want to whine about civility the second I push back? Don’t pretend you’re walking away because I was out of line. You’ve been smug and condescending from the jump — you’re just bailing because you ran out of argument. I’ve asked twice now about your claim that Williams’ management avoided fighters, yet you keep sidestepping it. If you want a serious discussion, back up your assertions instead of dodging the core issue.

 

Before even accounting for substantive injury, the wear/tear difference. between a 34 yo and 38 yo can be considerable.

Chuvalo only shaved off about 6 lbs from his weight for the Williams when he fought Ali about 1 1/2 years later - which was a reasonably competitive fight in which Chuvalo did better than he did their first bout in ‘66.

After the shooting, Williams had an artery I think removed from his leg to replace one in his abdomen - the withering of the leg in question (I think it was the left leg) is clearly visible.

Against Chuvalo. Williams himself was 15-18 lbs above his own best weight, fighting on one kidney with a bullet still lodged in his gut. By comparison, I don’t know that we can be talking about any of Chuvalo’s alleged miseries as an offset.

Watching the actual fight, Williams was the much more stamina challenged fighter. He had to pick his moments - and they were too few and far between - but when he did punch, he hurt and busted Chuvalo up - and the busting up began in the early rounds.

Not so surprisingly, Chuvalo ultimately outworked Cleve, landing his fair share of clean, hard punches.

If Williams was always as fragile as some would have it - he would’ve/should’ve folded - but he didn’t.

I think there is more an effort to unduly discredit Williams rather than any effort to elevate him disproportionally.

And that effort to discredit Williams appears to be in association with an effort to unduly discredit Liston - but Liston’s record otherwise speaks for itself.

The curious line of thinking I’m reading here is that a protected Williams only fought Liston because Sonny was an unknown quantity (false) whilst ignoring that Williams fought that same Liston again….

…..And that Liston’s pair of devastating victories over Williams (yeah, manner of victory counts also) were somehow, not all that, the quality of those victories having been merely exaggerated to bolster Liston - the same Liston who also went on to emphatically defeat Folley, Machen and Patterson to round out his clearing of the division and ascension to the title.

Yeah, the run of logic there isn’t holding for me.

 

@RockyValdez Any luck finding evidence to support your claim that Williams management avoided certain contenders?

 

The glaziers win this one.

 

Williams v Daniels wasn't "very close", Williams was a clear winner on all cards by margins of between 5 and 7 points. Likewise, Williams was comfortably ahead against Curley Lee when he flattened him in the final round. Your insinuation that there was something wrong with the draw decision against Machen is baseless - even Machen's talkative manager Sid Flaherty acknowledged that he was content with the decision.

You're citing losses Roger Rischer suffered back in the 1950s, long before he faced Williams. When they fought, his only loss in the last four years had been a close decision to Eddie Machen. The year after being knocked out by Williams he returned to the ratings by beating Henry Cooper. Even in 1968, near the end of his career, he had enough left to shade Eduardo Corletti (ranked 9th or 10th at the time, depending on whose ratings you favour).

I'm paying you the compliment of assuming you actually do know that the planned third Williams - Terrell fight was for the vacant WBA title, not a defence of a title Terrell already owned.

I don't know where you're getting the statement that Patterson was offered a higher purse for fighting Machen. Madison Square Garden offered him a generous 35% of the gate plus TV rights to fight Williams, though as the Associated Press remarked at the time, "Patterson couldn't be reached for his reaction, but in the past he has ducked the belters with a few exceptions." In any case, this isn't about Patterson ducking Williams, it's about Williams yet again showing his willingness to face the best in the world, and for whatever reason being unable to get them in the ring with him.

 

The logic here is downright baffling. Williams was scared of fighters like Dejohn and Valdez, yet he went after the guy who brutally knocked both of them out—and after getting knocked out himself, Williams still agreed to face him again!

"If Williams was always as fragile as some would have it - he would’ve/should’ve folded - but he didn’t."

I agree, if he was as fragile as guys like Pedro are making him out to be, a prime Williams shouldn't have been able to absorb the punishment he did. Let alone a shot one.

 

Yeah, he pulled the same move on me. He accused Williams of dodging fighters like Valdez and Dejohn. But when I pointed out that Williams fought (and beat) the guys who actually beat Valdez and Dejohn—like Miteff, Johnson, and Billy Daniels—he just shifted the goalposts and started attacking the quality of those opponents instead.

 

I think Williams could take a @MarkusFlorez99 on Patterson in terms of physicality, he’d probably overpower him and FP’s carelessness would cost him, the more I think of this fight the more possible it seems Clev Willie could’ve been champ. I’d have enjoyed seeing Ingo vs Williams… it’d be like two drunk guys with revolvers having a shoot out.

 

Thanks for comparing my physicality to prime Williams

 

If you have a sloppy left hook quite a couple years ago you’d have been picked to beat Biblical Samson and Hercules.

 

Prior to his gunshot injuries that nearly killed him, Williams was a durable and dangerous puncher. He took some shots from Sonny that not many other fighters could have remained upright. He eventually succumbed to those punches but gave Sonny all he could while it lasted. Floyd had the speed and footwork, on his best day Floyd was competitive with anyone not named Liston. I would pick Floyd over Williams by very close decison.

 

Durable? No sir