Floyd Patterson vs Cleveland Williams

You called 10 fight Jones a novice.I pointed out that Rademacher was having his first professional fight.
NB Williams ko'd Jones 9 months after their first fight.
WTF does anyone's name have to do with anything?

 

I think an obscure 10 fight novice, one that lost 3 fights all ready is some way behind an Olympic champion don’t you?

There was talk of Teofilo Stevenson challenging Muhammad Ali in his first pro fight. Are you telling me if Ali beat Stevenson like Floyd beat Radmacher it would be every bit as ridiculous as losing to a 7-3 guy who wasn’t an Olympic champion?

 

This is the truth of it.

Williams is right up there with guys like Henry Clark or Stan Ward. Game fringe guy with a long career. Nobody boosts Stan ward or Clark though.

 

The very fact that you have to keep talking about a 4-round decision loss when he was just 20 shows how hard it is to pick holes in Williams' record. If he was that beatable in his prime then Terrell, Machen, Daniels, Miteff and Rischer would have wiped the floor with him, but they couldn't. The only man who really bested him in his prime was Liston. Comparing him to a win some/lose some fringe contender like Henry Clark is just nonsensical.

 

Williams was 27-0 at 20. Mike Tyson was champion at that age with a similar record. If Tyson lost to a 7-3 guy at 27-0 do you think him being 20 years old would be a decent excuse? I don’t think so.

It’s not hard to pick holes in Williams record at all. Perhaps less hard when comparing him to a similar level of fighter but against champions?

You just mentioned Daniels, Rischer and Miteff like they are proof of something? They were not. Any half decent fringe guy using them as the away fighter would be expected to beat them.

He did not beat Machen. And Terrell beat him.

 

He also believes there was no difference in Williams after he got shot though film clearly shows there is. I wouldn't take anything he says to seriously.

 

Well he has seen more film than either of us. Until there is film available to all of us that prove Williams really was a champion in the making we have to make do with unimpressive film of the Daniels fight and a record that shows he could not beat championship elite guys.

 

For what it's worth, it looks like Williams probably should have got the decision against Terrell from the film. But that's just my opinion.

The idea that Williams wasn't effected by getting shot up close by a .357 magnum flies against what almost everyone around at the time thought and against the most basic common sense reasoning.
If an athlete is shot in the abdomen and needs a 5 hour surgery to save his life, and has his internal organs damaged, he's not going to be rejuvenated 2 years later.

I agree that Williams wasn't necessarily a long-standing or truly top quality contender but he was on roughly the same level as Machen and Terrell.
Patterson wasn't a great heavyweight champion by any means and Williams had decent power and speed and was quite agile so he's capable of posing something of a threat.
I'd pick Patterson to win certainly.

 

Please. How many heavyweights are in their prime or even in the top 10 at the age of 20? It's not unknown but it's very rare because most men of that age haven't yet reached full physical maturity.

All three were ranked in the top ten when soundly beaten by Williams. Daniels had just battered and stopped no.10 ranked Mike deJohn.

Terrell "beat" him by a split decision which could as easily have gone the other way. I never said he beat Machen, I said Machen failed to beat him, which he would have done if Williams was the nonentity you're trying to claim.

 

yes this is fair. There was a window between the hammering from Liston and the gun shot wounding that Williams was on par with Terrell and Machen. But Terrell and Machen were not on the level of Patterson. Floyd beat Machen.

Absolutely. It’s the most logical outcome.

 

on the eve of his fight with Trevor Berbick Mike Tyson had exactly the same record and was the identical age as Williams was when he was exposed by 10 fight novice sly Jones. Williams even had known names on his record already like Keene Simmons and Omilo Agramante on his resume that are about the level of The retreads Tyson was getting about then too. At 27-0 nobody is a kid anymore.

Another example, Tami Mauriello was 49-5-1 at age 20. Mauriello has already fought guys like Lou Nova, Red Burman, Jimmy Bivins, Lee Savold, Bob Paster at that age proving if you have the experience 20 years old is just a number.

here we go again with Billy Daniels. The one good win. That’s it. On points. Wobbled by 20lb lighter guy. Who else talks about Billy Daniels? The sands of time forgets him until Williams needs a credible win. The others were retreads, rated journeymen. The second time they fought Daniels did just as well even though he had lost a lot of fights in between times. Karl mildenburger knocked him out. Even Jack Bodel matched Williams in beating him on points. Why isn’t mildenburger getting the love? Karl stopped the guy Williams could not in 20 rounds!

At no time have I said Cleveland was a nonentity. The guy was good. He had to be for that 18 month window where he took Terrell and Machen close, but a lot of guys took good fighters close. Renaldo Snipes took Witherspoon, Page and Berbick close too. Nobody would dare put Snipes over Patterson or any good linear champion would they?

 

Are you sticking with your claim that he was no better than Henry Clark or not?

 

He’s no better than Karl mildenberger. And mildenberger was quite good.

Henry Clark? Well Henry lasted more rounds with Liston than Williams did. Clark has some good spells in a long career. He beat Machen,he beat Mac Foster, (both Williams could not beat) clark beat Roy Tiger Williams, he beat Leotis Martin, he beat Jeff Merrit, he beat Jody Ballard. And Clarke was rated a few times.

I’m not saying Clark was as good a puncher but overall I think Clark has a better wins than Cleveland Williams.

 

I don't even know where to start with that.

Lasted more rounds with Liston? Clark was outclassed and stopped by a (probably) 37-year old Liston. If I was trying to highlight his achievements in the ring, that's probably not the first result I'd have quoted.

 

How much better would you say Williams was than Clark then? Marginally or greatly? If it’s greatly then where is the greater number of wins?

Sure Clark fought older Machen, Liston than Williams did. But the Leotis Martin that Clark beat had just knocked out Karl Mildenburger and would go on to knockout Sonny Liston. That’s a better win there isn’t it?

His run of wins in the 1970s got Clark into the ratings. Powerhouse Jeff “candy slim” Merrit was 23-1. Clark stopped him in a round. Merritt had destroyed Ron Stander and was a big deal. Tiger Williams was 21-3 and would give Holmes and Shavers tough fights. Bob Stallings beat Ernie Shavers. Clark was not to be sniffed at. And neither was Cleveland Williams.