Floyd Patterson vs Harold Johnson Eddie Mâchén and Zora Folley 1958-1959

Interesting scenario for sure. All would be distance fights and lets say he fights those guys consecutively--never happen with Cus--over an 18 month period...I think he drops a decision to the 3rd guy he'd face.

The rationale is simple really---how many heavies are razor sharp against elite competition 3 fights in a row? There's always some softies mixed in and going 3-0 while having to be razor sharp with the A game is a thing strictly for the greats. The good fighters will drop a decision/lose to that level of competition.

 

Johnson may be even more timid than Floyd. Did Machen or Folley ever really "destroy" anybody?

 

On paper he beats them all, but if he fights all three, he perhaps drops one.

 

You hardly ever see a guy matched with consecutive bouts against spoilers.

 

Johnson has a better heavyweight resume than some heavyweight champions.

 

Based on names, but not on rankings.

 

Patterson beats all three

 

Harold Johnson beat Jimmy Bivins, Clarence Henry, Ezzard Charles (before Marciano), Wayne Bethea, and Eddie Machen all when they were ranked in the top 10. He also beat a young Nino Valdez, and fringe guys like Marty Marshall (who was coming off wins over Satterfield, and Sonny Liston), Bert Whitehurst, and Howard King. That's comparable to just about any light heavyweight champion in history save a handful and better than the lesser heavyweight champions.

In my opinion at least.

 

Unfortunately for this argument Bivins was already on the slide and Johnson barely beat him. He barely beat Clarence Henry and then refused a contracted rematch with him (Henry never amounted to much anyway). Johnson barely beat Charles and again avoided a contracted return. Charles was past his prime and coming off a wide decision loss three weeks earlier to Nino Valdez. When Johnson himself beat Valdez Valdez was a total nobody who was losing to or drawing with anyone who could fight. His biggest win to date was a decision over Keene Simmons and he would go on to lose his next three fights after Johnson. Bert Whitehurst, Wayne Bethea, Howard King, Marty Marshall, nothing nothing nothing nothing. Machen is probably Johnson's best win at heavyweight and he barely won that one and then refused to honor yet another rematch clause. Notice a trend here? The Johnson-Machen fight was so poor that the winner basically promised a shot at Patterson but nobody wanted to see it. Johnson decided to stay at light heavyweight instead.

Johnson's ledger at heavyweight is nothing special and the heavyweights he did beat, when he beat them, were not comparable to what Patterson would have brought to the table.

 

"The Johnson-Machen fight was so poor"

Actually, I thought it was a terrific display of skill by both men.

but for those who prefer Brian London or Tom McNeeley, I guess it was a poor fight.

 

I think Floyd could have beaten all three of them, though fighting them one right after the other would have made for a tough schedule and a potential upset loss. They certainly would have made for better title defenses than some of the men he actually defended against.

 

It was boring and tepid. Nobody wanted to watch that.

Say what you will about London and McNeeley but when Patterson fought London he was already signed to fight the guy who blew Eddie Machen to smithereens. Johannson didn't just barely squeak by on a timid decision like Johnson always did against heavyweights.

When Patterson fought McNeeley he was already in talks to defend against Liston who had beaten Machen more convincingly than Johnson and who had a better claim to challenge for the title than anyone.

Had Patterson fought and defeated Johnson instead of McNeeley hiss detractors would have been giving him just as much stick based on Johnson being a light heavyweight and having a relatively weak record in the division.

Harold Johnson Outpoints Machen
ATLANTIC CITY, N.J. (UPI) — Harold Johnson, light heavyweight co-champion,

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outpointed Eddie Machen, second-ranking heavyweight contender, Saturday night in their nationally-televised, non-title fight

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, and the 3,942 fans in the huge Convention Hall greeted the verdict with mingled cheers and

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.

3 times Johnson defeated decent heavyweights. Each time he barely won. Each time he was contractually obligated to fight a rematch and refused. Johnson was trying to sneak into the ratings get a title shot and get a payday. Nothing more. He was not serious about a run at the championship. When Liston won the championship he was in the magazines constantly talking about going after Liston but he'd had a match with Liston scheduled years earlier and ducked out of that as well.

 

Johnson beat more ranked contenders at heavyweight than any light heavyweight champ this side of Moore and Loughran. charles was pre Marciano (and I noted that Valdez was young. And johnson beat Machen before Floyd did.

But you missed my point. I don't think Johnson has a better heavyweight resume than Patterson. Hell let's say I concede every point you made. I said that Johnson has a better resume at heavyweight than some heavyweight champions. Certainly it's better than leon spinks. I think it's better than james Braddock or jess willard. That's what I was trying to say.

 

Then whats your point. The OP was asking who wins and I favor Floyd Patterson against all three in convincing fashion with Johnson being the easiest of three to beat.

I don't even know that Johnson beat more ranked contenders than most other light heavyweights because a lot of the guys you named weren't ranked when he fought them. Valdez wasn't rated, Marshall was rated 10 at light heavyweight when he fought Johnson not heavyweight. Bert Whitehurst wasn't rated in either of their fights. Neither was Wayne Bethea or Howard King.

You were either trying to inflate Johnson's credentials by saying he fought more heavyweight contenders than most light heavyweights and sported a better record against them than most lower level hw champions that's just not true. Or you just didn't realize that he only fought four. FOUR contenders. Every one of those fights was close and he ducked a contracted return engagement in three of those. Most of those fights were considered boring and Johnson did nothing to increase demand for himself to challenge for the heavyweight title.

Your point that Johnson fought Machen before Patterson does not change the fact that Patterson beat Machen more easily and beat the guy who destroyed Machen three years before Johnson barely nicked a decision from him, incidentally the same amount of time between Machen's fights with Johnson and Patterson. You cant have it both ways.

Your point about Charles fighting Johnson before Marciano doesn't mean anything. Nobody is kidding themselves that Charles was in his prime against Marciano. That's one of the major knocks against Marciano, that all of the best guys he fought were past their prime. The fact that Charles lost handily to a virtually unknown Nino Valdez just three weeks earlier diminishes Johnson's win. From the time Charles lost to Valdez he lost more than won. Everyone knew his days were numbered.

Im just not willing to favor a fighter whose best heavyweight wins weren't against the best heavyweights and he barely won them to begin with and wasn't confident enough in those victories to see through rematches. Beating those guys is a far cry from a young, fast, hard punching aggressive and busy Floyd Patterson.

The ironic thing about Johnson was that he was always complaining that he couldn't get fights but then when you watch his fights and read the reports you see he was a very talented but very boring, methodical fighter. The word "unimpressive" comes up a lot in the description of his fights. Johnson criticized the fans and said they didn't know what they were watching. Maybe that's true because Johnson was a great boxer but his inability to get fights wasn't because he was too good, it was because nobody wanted to watch the grass grow under his feet.