Floyd Patterson vs. Harold Johnson

What in Johnson's resume or filmed footage makes you think he would beat or knock out Patterson?

Johnson struggled with Jimmy Slade. Patterson kicked Slades ass royally twice.

Johnson was knocked out by Archie Moore in 14. Patterson knocked Moore out easily in 5.

Johnson won a one round swing against Machen. Patterson dominated Machen.

Who exactly did Johnson knockout or even beat at HW that would lend anyone to think he could beat Patterson. I cant think of a single top ten HW he KOd and I cant recall Patterson ever getting outboxed short of Ali doing it. You have to think Johnson has two chances: to either eak out a decision, which I dont see happening, or win via KO which I also dont see happening.

 

I was talking about Harold Johnsons chances versus Johansson not Patterson


Off topic.

Harold fought a better version of Moore in 54 than Patterson did in 56

Patterson did not fight a prime Eddie Machen

I'll say this Damato did not have as much confidence in Patterson beating Johnson as you did.

I favor Floyd over Johnson

 

"Who exactly did Johnson knockout or even beat at HW that would lend anyone to think he could beat Patterson"

Funny isn't this the same argument I have for why pastrano doesn't stand a chance vs Liston, which you dismiss?

 

The difference is that Pastrano was a fast, durable, defensively adept fighter capable of outpointing Liston. Johnson doesnt hold a single advantage over Patterson so i dont see him being able to take the fight the distance and win on points. Patterson was just better than Johnson if he doesnt have to drain himself to make 175 its even worse for Johnson.

 

Do fast durable defensively adept fighters get routinely out pointed by roy Harris joe Erskine wayne Thornton chic calderwood Jessie bowdry alonzo Johnson?

He was not capable of out pointing a prime 215lb Sonny liston. He was too small, he didn't hit hard enough, and he didn't take it to the body well. Listons 84" telephone pole left jab will score repeatedly on a retreating Pastrano, forcing him to close the gap right into listons artillery. Listons left hook clubbing right hand finally land and take Pastrano out early.

 

"It is not like he blew out nobodies and struggled with the best"

Fair enough. This is a valid point, and I think a very important one in evaluating any fighter.

"Liston deserved a shot more than Harold Johnson did."

Well, I thought this thread is about how Johnson would have fared against Patterson, not if Patterson should have defended against Johnson versus this or that fighter he actually defended against.

 

Well, as I said before Walcott was a back injury, Herschel Jacobs a cut (when Johnson was 43), and Mederos too bizarre to consider.

So we are down to two fights. Very few guys could fight Moore 54 rounds w/o being caught sooner or later. And Billy Smith caught him early with a big punch, like Curtis Sheppard did with Maxim. I don't know what that proved about Maxim vulnerabilities to punches.

Certainly he might get caught by Johansson, but I don't think it is a done deal. Johnson fought far more good heavyweights than Johansson did and performed very well against them.

 

We arent down to two fights. I gave you four. 2 Andrews fights, Moore, and Smith. You discount Smith because it was early but it doesnt change the fact that Johnson got hit with the punch and had been hit with the exact same punch at the end of round 1 and didnt make the adjustments he needed to defend against it. It was the same punch that Moore hit him with and the same punch that Andrews was landing over and over in both their fights. Its also the same punch that Johansson landed against Machen. The bottom line is that Johnson could get hit with a right hand and if Johansson landed his right hand Johnson would be taking a trip to the hospital. You can minimize what Johansson did and say Johnson fought far more better HWs than Johansson did (which is highly debateable). But Johansson's level of competition at HW is still higher than Johnson's and he won by KO there.

 

"What in Johnson's resume . . . ?"

Well, if we compare fighters who were ranked at one time or another among the top five heavyweights--

Johnson defeated

Arturo Godoy, Jimmy Bivins, Archie Moore, Clarence Henry, Nino Valdes, Ezzard Charles, Jimmy Slade, Eddie Machen, Doug Jones

Patterson defeated

Jimmy Slade, Hurricane Jackson, Archie Moore, Roy Harris, Ingemar Johansson, Eddie Machen, George Chuvalo, Henry Cooper, Oscar Bonavena

personally, I think these lists are pretty close. And of the fighters who were never rated in the top five, I would give Johnson the edge with fighters like Bob Satterfield and Leonard Morrow, as well as big men like Bill Gilliam and Sid Peaks.

And the resumes at light-heavy are not even close.

Still, because of his strong showing against Moore, I give Patterson the edge.

"I can't think of a single top ten heavyweight he KO'd"

Okay, fair enough.

Although he knocked out his share of light-heavies and heavies as large as the 215 lb. one-time contender Sid Peaks.

"I can't recall Patterson ever being outboxed short of Ali"

And Maxim, Quarry, and Ellis.

Ten officials were assigned to judge those fights. Not one of the ten gave their decision to Patterson. The best he could do was a draw on any card.

I have seen these fights on film and to me the decisions were accurate.

And Johnson was a better boxer than any of this trio in my judgment.

"filmed footage"

He looks a more solid boxer than Patterson to me, with a better jab and a classic style. Patterson had more power and quicker hands. Neither man had a first rate chin. Johnson's power might be a bit hard to gauge as he appears to me to be a stylist who was content to outbox an opponent. The right hand which put away Andrews on film shows to me that a knockout of Patterson by Johnson wouldn't be completely off the table, although far less likely than Patterson KO'ing Johnson. Johnson outboxing Patterson is not that unlikely a result.

 

To be fair, I think you're overselling Johnson here.

Godoy and Bivins were nothing after WWII. Godoy was nearly 10 years removed from his fights with Louis and was at the very end of his career. Bivins fell off the table when everyone returned from the war and he'd lost 11 fights in the three years leading up to the Johnson fight. Clarence Henry was only briefly rated, and quit boxing for attempting to fix fights for the mob. His entire mob-controlled career is suspect. And Moore beat Johnson four out of the five times they fought.

And even against those names you listed ... Johnson wasn't dominating. IF he won, he barely edged them in razor close fights. (While Patterson knocked out just about everyone you mentioned above - Slade, Jackson, Moore, Harris, Johansson and Cooper.)

The only "names" on that list Johnson "owned" were Nino Valdes and Doug Jones, who he beat by wide margins. Can't take anything away from him, there.

Patterson, for all his faults, was the heavyweight champion when Johnson was the light heavyweight champion ... and there was, even then, a huge gulf between the men who held those titles.

Floyd could dominate heavyweights and score monster knockouts against top fighters whereas Johnson (if he won against heavys) tended to have to hustle to squeak by with a decision.

If they fought five times in non-title 10 rounders, I'd give Harold Johnson a shot at winning ONE against Patterson by split decision. And I think Patterson knocks out Johnson in three of the five 10-rounders.

If they fought 15 rounds, I think Patterson stops him every time.

They were both very good boxers. But Floyd was too fast and strong over the long haul.

I would be surprised if anyone here believed Harold Johnson was superior to Patterson or was clearly the better man.

 

Henry, entered the fight as the No. 3 heavyweight contender.

Henry was an overwhelming favorite. There weren't any betting odds on the fight unless someone wanted to bet on what round Johnson would get knocked out.

 

The left hooks he landed on undefeated Bob Baker and Bob Satterfield to knock him unconscious weren't suspect. Henry was in line for a title shot in 1953 and was one of the most feared punchers in boxing

 

I think Johnson is a great great fighter...but Patterson might shock him. Possibly early.

 

Feared puncher my ass. When he fought Jimmy Slade they described him simply having a good right hand. This is the Henry who was supposedly in line for a title shot. Slade, who wasnt exactly Ray Robinson, made him look ordinary. Who did Henry KO to make anyone think he was this feared puncher. When he finally stepped up he KOd exactly two respectable opponents: Baker and the glass chinned Satterfield. So basically he has exactly one decent KO on a record that has a less than 50% ko ratio. You are severely over selling Henry and wanting him to be more than he actually was.