Floyd Patterson vs. Primo Carnera

I would agree with your assessment of his progress,without the assistance of Owney Madden ,and Billy Duffy,and Walter"GoodTime "Charley Friedman.Carnera would not have been Champ.Friedman was the front man for Duffy,who was a gangster club owner,Duffy himself was controlled by Madden,known as "The Czar Of Broadway" Madden 's chief claim,to fame is that he was the right hand man of Dutch Shultz.

 

Madden owned, or at least ran, the Cotton Club and owned breweries turning out about 300,000 gallons of beer a day. The money in or from boxing would have been chicken feed for Madden one way or the other and there is no proof he took any interest in Carnera at all. Duffy ran speakeasys on Broadway in the twenties and was then connected to Madden who provided the booze and the entertainers. Duffy, though, had connections to boxing which went back further than Carnera.

New York Times 5-26-1952 obituary of Bill Duffy

"When Jack Dempsey fought Jack Sharkey in 1927, Duffy was Dempsey's chief second. It was said that it was Duffy who, when Dempsey fouled Sharkey and the referee was undecided about giving Sharkey the decision or counting him out, screamed 'start counting' and Sharkey was counted out in the 7th round of the fight."

The obituary does say this about Carnera and his national tour in 1930.
"Carnera knocked his opponents out easily--so easily in fact that most observers were inclined to believe the fights were fixed."

These were, however, not the fights against name opponents which moved Carnera into contender status, and no hard proof is given of fixes.

There are a number of articles in the Times concerning Duffy's problems with the IRS for not reporting an income of $34,000 in 1930. That income points to Duffy no longer being an insider with Madden. Owney, by the way, was in Sing-Sing himself in 1931 and 1932.

 

HEgrant, funny how you critisize primo but defend jess willard. to me on film, willard looks no better than primo carnera. In fact Willard looks god awful. Like a kansas farmer with a pitchfork, who works on his farm all day then gets in the ring and is told to use his burley farmboy size to knock the other man out. I honestly wonder how much boxing technique he was ever taught.

 

I think the main difference between Willard and Carnera was durability,Willard could take a lot of punishment without going down,the Dempsey fight, aside ,Gunboat Smith said he hit him several times with his Sunday punch but there was no reaction from Willard ,and Smith could hit.

 

Being in prison doesn't preclude a criminal from controlling things on the "outside,Palermo and Luciano both proved that.Carnera' fights with Leon Chevalier,Ace Clark ,Young Stribling ,Big Boy Peterson and probably Chuck Wiggins are beleived to be fakes,Carnera had his purse withheld from one fight ,and the referee for the Stanley Poreda fight was suspended after the fight.Can I prove they wre tank jobs ? NO ,neither can I prove Lamotta went into the water for Billy Fox,I also think there is a good chance Bud Gorman splashed for Carnera,but no one has any proof,any one wanting to look into Carnera's record would do well to read the comments tacked on the them on Box rec.Carnera did become competent enough to beat the likes of Impellietere,Campolo,and Uzcudun,I discount the Schaaf fight as Schaaf was patently a "dead man walking",probably from the thunderous clout he received from Max Baer,at the end of their fight.You make of the Sharkey ko what you will.

 

1. True, but Madden was busy with quite a bit of legal hassling and there is no direct proof I have ever seen that he concerned himself with what for him would have been penny ante stuff like Primo Carnera's career. The man owned a brewery and the swankiest nightclubs in New York.

2. The opponents you gave, other than Stribling, are a bunch of second raters. I don't deny that fights may have been fixed, but they weren't the ones which mattered.

3. "The referee for the Stanley Poreda fight was suspended after the fight"--this is true, but he was suspended for giving his decision to Poreda. If this fight was fixed, it was fixed against Carnera. By the way, if Carnera's success can only be explained by fixed fights, why weren't the fights with Maloney, Gains, and Poreda fixed, and if not, why was Carnera sent into the ring with top contenders to fight honest fights after extending all the money and effort needed to get an inept fighter to the top through fixed fights?

4. Off the autopsy, Schaaf's death occured due to an inflammation of the brain due to a severe bout of influenza. You are right that this is a questionable win for Carnera. Baer's blows probably had nothing to do with it.

5. The film of the Sharkey fight shows a legitimate victory for Carnera in my judgement. There is really nothing suspicious about this fight.

 

I never suggested that Carnera's wins over Lasky, McCorkindale,Levinsky etc,weren't kosher,but let us remember that Carnera had weight advantages of78 lbs over Lasky,84 lbs over McCorkindale and 78 lbs over Levinsky .I think Carnera grew into a reasoanble boxer with a bothersome jab ,he possessed moderate power despite his long list of"KO's",and didn't take a shot too well.It is a matter of record that Sharkey broke training for the second Carnera fight to "go home and see his family",stories have surfaced that there was pressure brought to bear on Sharkey and Johnny Buckley his Manager ,but nothing has ever been proven ,as I said you make of the fight what you will.Sharkey insisted he saw a vision on Schaaf when he was backed up ,and never saw the upeercut coming ,nor felt it.

 

Carnera had weight advantages over other heavyweights? Obviously, and this is of no importance. He was much bigger than the men he fought on the whole as he would be about 80 lbs or so heavier than Patterson. This is heavyweight boxing and his size is not a valid criticism of him.

"Stories have surfaced that there was pressure brought to bear on Sharkey"

All I will say is that in my opinion this is very weak.

A lot of the criticism of Carnera seems to come from unsourced stories which "surface" and then are accepted as gospel.

Sharkey broke training to "go home and see his family"--What are you implying? That his family was threatened? But why would he have to go home to see them to know they would be all right as long as he threw the fight? This is putting a sinister spin on something which could have a million explanations. Perhaps he wanted to be there for one of his children's birthday party or something.

 

I honestly don't understand how there are still people doubting the Sharkey fight.

Outside of Lennox Lewis, i've never seen any big man land such a ferocious right uppercut. Bowe had a great one too, but it didn't seem as vicous as this one.


I will repeat, it takes a gigantic leap of faith and a trainload of ignorance to write off Carnera as having an orchestrated career. Yes, some of his early fights against tomato cans may have been fixed, but this may be true of many champions. What we do know is that he won many fights against legit top contenders and a champion in Sharkey, that were all on the level. That is enough for me.

His record is actually quite impressive to me, certainly not far behind Schmeling's and in my opinion ahead of Sharkey's. One of more underrated champions for sure. Maybe because people naturally like to root for the smaller guy, maybe because the bad smell of all the exaggerated fix-stories, maybe the fact he wasn't American, maybe the fact that he doesn't look impressive because big men can never match speed and skill with smaller ones, while it's easy to overlook the gigantic strength and size advantage. Of course the Baer fight didn't do him any good, but what is worst about that fight is that people only remember the many knockdowns (all of which he got up from), while ignoring or forgetting that he was outboxing Baer during most of the remaining 9 rounds. I've also read reports of him having an ankle injury, which certainly leads to one being able to get knocked down more easily. Against Louis, his durability was just fine - he lasted longer than Sharkey, Baer, and many others.

 

Allright ,my problem with the Sharkey figth is this,Sharkey was stopped 3 times once by Dempsey ,when he took his eyes off his opponent to protest about a low punch,once by Louis when he was finished,and in his 10th fight by Romero Rojas,Sharkey said he had just gotten married ,and didnt have his mind on the fight .Sharkey fights Schmeling twice and doesnt go down,yet he is knocked cold by a sweeping uppercut from Carnera,Who NEVER KOD ANOTHER TOP FIGHTER.Sharkeys reaction to the punch looks a bit "dramatic " to me,just my take on it .Sharkey steadfastly claimed the fight was legit ,and no-one has been able to make any mud stick.still It doesn't sit right with me ,try as I may.I would love to think the Richest prize in boxing has never been bought ,but I'm not sure .Louis nearly killed Carnera,he had him down three times,and helpless at the end.Sharkey was washed up when he fought Louis and Baer quit,the rounds they went compared to Primo have no bearing on durability at all.Carnera's effort against Baer is overstated he was DOWN 11 times in as many rounds it was an arse whipping.