Floyd Patterson would have sucked in any other era

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by InMemoryofJakeLamotta, Mar 31, 2024.


  1. HomicideHank

    HomicideHank I believe in the transmigration of souls Full Member

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    What did Tom McNeely do to earn his title fight?

    What did Pastrano ever do at Heavyweight?

    He also defended his title against a guy making his debut. Why are we sidestepping that.

    You have made good points and corrected me on specifics but you haven't disproved or even argued against my overarching point which is that Patterson was protected and on more than one occassion had his opponent cherry-picked for him.
     
  2. HomicideHank

    HomicideHank I believe in the transmigration of souls Full Member

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    Williams broke into the top 5 in 1961 when Patterson was champ.
     
  3. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Yes, nr 5 for two months. That's total during Floyd's two reigns. So can we please let go of this myth that he was ducked?
     
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  4. HomicideHank

    HomicideHank I believe in the transmigration of souls Full Member

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    Too little too late imo.
    He only really had 7/8 fights with ranked opponents, he fought a lot of stiffs in between.

    I'm not sure how that disproves that Flynn was a good fighter. Even if Sam took him lightly that's a great win in anyone's book. He was a mainstay at Heavyweight for years so was Jim Johnson.
     
  5. HomicideHank

    HomicideHank I believe in the transmigration of souls Full Member

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    You still haven't answered my question:
    What other champion fought a debutants coming out of the Olympics?
     
  6. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Nothing. He was an extremely easy defence. No one has claimed anything different.

    But if we are going to chastise Floyd for this, the same should go for Frazier, Ali, Holmes and others who defended against unworthy opponents.

    He was ranked for several years. His LHW reign actually came later. There was nothing strange back then for a HW contender to compete at LHW as well.

    Defended? I said that I think he was a better fighter than for example Stander and Coopman. But those were awful challengers really. But as I said above, it's nothing unique for Floyd to defend against guys that have no business whatsoever challenging for the HW title.

    In Floyd's case, it was a bit of an encore, with the defence of Rademacher coming just three weeks after his defence against Jackson. But, no, Rademacher was not a worthy challenger. No one has ever claimed he was, though.

    No, your point was that he didn't face any top contenders and you have been resoundly corrected on that. Instead of just admitting that, you've tried to evolve your argument to things no one has denied.

    What we can say about the things you now put forth is:

    1. Cus tried to protect Floyd against Liston, but Floyd wouldn't have it. The reason Liston had to wait for his shot was the rematch clauses between Floyd and Ingo.

    2. Floyd faced nr 3 Harris instead of nr 1 Machen. Why he did has never been revealed. I think that a reasonable explanation is that Harris, as a white contender, was a bigger draw. And it didn't seem that controversial at the time, SI wrote that Harris "was very likely the second best HW in the world" https://vault.si.com/vault/1958/09/01/the-fight-that-changed-two-faces

    From the same article:

    "At every such exchange the crowd of 21,680 which had paid a California record of $234,183.25 to sit in Wrigley Field, Los Angeles, roared hoarse applause. When Harris landed there was a special roar from Texas pilgrims and a crazed waving of ten-gallon hats. Across the land, and especially in Texas, tens of thousands—perhaps as many as 200,000—saw the fight on theater television and paid upwards of $1 million for the privilege."

    It seems to have made good money, so it was probably more down to that than protection.

    3. Rademacher and McNeely were unworthy challengers, but the same is true of some of the challengers of several of the greatest HWs. So it's not something that sets him apart as more protected than everyone else.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2024
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  7. HomicideHank

    HomicideHank I believe in the transmigration of souls Full Member

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    But if we are going to chastise Floyd for this, the same should go for Frazier, Ali, Holmes and others who defended against unworthy opponents.

    Of course.

    Defended? I said that I think he was a better fighter than for example Stander and Coopman. But those were awful challengers really. But as I said above, it's nothing unique for Floyd to defend against guy that have no business whatsoever challenging for the HW title.

    Not as bad as fighting a guy on his debut. That's terrible.

    No, your point was that he didn't face any top contenders and you have been resoundly corrected on that. Instead of just admitting that, you've tried to evolve your argument to things no one has denied.

    Just because that's the part of my argument you've stuck on, doesn't mean that it was my entire argument. Pay attention to the title of this forum. I haven't tried to evolve my argument into anything, I brought Rademecher up from my beginning statement. Just because you're not arguing against it doesn't mean that its not a valid point.

    Rademacher and McNeely were unworthy challengers

    'Unworthy' is an understatement.
     
  8. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    No one is disagreeing with you about Rademacher being an unworthy challenger. The only thing posters here have disagreed with you about is that Floyd didn't face any top contenders.
     
  9. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Tyson Fury?
     
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  10. MaccaveliMacc

    MaccaveliMacc Well-Known Member Full Member

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    And not even coming out of Olympics.
     
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  11. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Patterson fought the following ranked contenders.
    Maxim no1
    Slade no5
    Slade no10
    Jackson no3
    Moore no 1
    Jackson no1
    Harris no 4
    London no8
    Johansson no1
    Johansson Champ
    Johansson no1
    Liston no1
    Liston Champ
    Machen no6
    Chuvalo no5
    Ali Champ
    Quarry no 5
    Quarry no5
    Ellis no3
    Bonavena no 4
    Ali no1

    18 fights with ranked contenders, plus 3 champions.

    Apart from possibly Louis and Ali, name another heavyweight champ who fought more top ten ranked men?
     
  12. Reinhardt

    Reinhardt Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    This totally dismantles the title of this thread.
     
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  13. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    And his losses to Maxim, Quarry (draw as well) and Ellis were quite controversial, so he could easily have been 16-5 in those 21 fights, with four of the losses coming to Liston and Ali.
     
  14. MaccaveliMacc

    MaccaveliMacc Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Holmes, Wlad maybe? Lennox?
     
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  15. PRW94

    PRW94 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    1. Floyd Patterson absolutely had premier boxing chops. He just didn’t as noted, except for the second Ingo fight, have a killer instinct, he also would have been a psychiatrist’s dream trying to figure out what was going on upstairs and he was undersized for a heavyweight as his peers got bigger and stronger.

    2. Cus D’Amato absolutely protected him, and that along with him crapping the bed twice against Liston is why he is so underrated if not dissed. I think he prospered when he got away from Cus, who I’ve never thought much of.

    3. Floyd is my favorite heavyweight and I think he’d have done well against some of the contenders he didn’t fight, but he wouldn’t have a friggin’ thing for Johnson or Dempsey. But I think he might surprise people against an aged Marciano who was showing signs of decline against Moore although Rocky would probably still have to be favored.
     
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