Folley vs Machen - who was best ?

These two were so close to one another talent-wise that there could be a different result every time. What separated them? Maybe Folley had better technical skills and Machen had a better jaw, that's about it. I think it was a crying shame that neither of these two got their well-deserved shot at Floyd. Unlike Floyd, they fought everyone who was anyone. Now, having said that, I think Floyd would have got by the two of them. It would have only enhanced Floyd's career to have their names on his record (in their prime I mean, I know Floyd beat Eddie later on).

 

I think Patterson beats both, with Machen more likely to go the distance.

 

I think Machen might have been more durable and Folley had more pop
I would pick prime Floyd to beat either, but not with any real confidence.
It is a travesty that neither got a shot at him when they were prime.

 

I've always found these two fascinating myself - I think it is the unrealized promise and tragic endings that attracted me also, once I first read about them in the old boxing mags I collected.

It's close, razor close. I tend to lean slightly to Folley, both because of his holding the one victory H2H and some of the other factors noted in this thread, such as superior punching power. I also think both he and Machen, at their best, stand a chance of upsetting Patterson.

 

Machen was the better prospect. as an unbeaten youth he was red hot. Really stormed the rating more than Folley initially. Machen annihilated poor Nino Valdes. But after his first crushing loss Machen levelled out. Folley had some more fragile moments during his apreintiship by comparison but like Machen he was so active. Probably both were too active. You take that many fights you get a bit gym weary and drop fights you would normally win with a lighter schedule. These two were close. They both dropped fights at crucial times but were generally excelent full time professionals in the truest sense. Really capable and experienced. Always in shape.

 

Both deserved title shots over the pathetic crew of Roy Harris Brian London Pete radamacher and Tom mcneeley

Machen and Folley were the top 2 contenders for years and never got a shot against Patterson...it's completely unfair

 

I think Machen was the better fighter by a hair all around. Folley was just too timid. He lacked fire. He just sat back and waited and waited and waited. He never really seemed to go for it. I understand he was a counterpuncher at heart by my god did he take it to a different level. Thats why his fights with Machen sucked so bad. Machen wasnt exactly over aggressive either and both guys just stunk the joint out both times.

 

Patterson was murder against guys his size. You look at his 8 losses, he lost twice each to Liston and Ali who were too big for him, once to Johanssen, which he avenged twice, once to Maxim when he was a novice, and to Ellis and Quarry in fights most people thought he won.

He beats either guy, he was too powerful for Machen, and Foley doesn't outbox him because no one did; Ali said he was the best boxer he ever fought.

 

I guess you missed the "both dropped fights at crucial times" bit.

Two Europeans deserved to go ahead of them only one should have been Cooper.

 

Lost fights at crucial times????

Both fighters were Pattersons top two contenders for years !!!!

Patterson should be ashamed for not fighting them

Both warranted shots over those 4 lower rated guys

Both warranted shots over Henry cooper

 

Hi Suzie! Haven't had the time to REALLY look at any posts lately and critique with any level of 'credibility'.
But, despite Cus's protecting Floyd (in his first reign):
Folley and Eddie drew in the late fifties which (at least in Cus's protective mind) enabled his fighter to go elsewhere.
Prime Zora was cautious (with power) Despite their rematch Cooper may well have outworked him in their initial late 50's bout.
I haven't seen EVERY round but this robbery **** in that one is total BS IMO.
Eddie got brutally clocked against Ingo.
Floyd lost 8 fights in his career (2 Liston's, 2 Ali's) The other four are debatable sans Ingo, one which was avenged.
Williams worked his way around several 'contenders' in the late 50's-early 60's Tho I give him credit, his initial bout with Sonny seems to be the Only 'shout out' to his career.
IMO the first reign Floyd could have beaten all three, given all the particulars.
Lastly, Patterson deserves ATG HOF status over ANY of those three, post-Liston career not even being mentioned.
My somewhat limited $0.02

 

Jowcol

Answer his..did the mediocrity of Harris radamacher London and mcneeley deserve title shots over number 1 and number 2 ranked Zora Folley and Eddie Machen?

 

No I don't think either of them were rated ahead of Jackson. The Radmacher fight was simply an extra fight that came weeks after beating Jackson to save Floyd breaking camp so his next date went to Harris over Machen and Folley.

Whilst this did happen Folyd agreed to beat the winner of Machen v Folley but there was no winner!! The Machen Folley fight was supposed to determine whom was better so the public could get behind one of them. Harris on paper was as good or thereabouts as Folley was at that time (check his record) who proved to be no better than Machen. What's the problem? Ingo beats Machen and Cooper beats Folley.

Then Floyd signed to fight his #1 contender who knocked out Machen in one round but took a tune up first. He can't take Machen and Folley because they both lost meaningful fights. Brian London was chosen over Cooper on account of being the first guy to stop the colourful Willie Pastrano. Ironically even though he lost to Cooper in his last fight!

Ingo comes next. Nobody goes ahead of ingo and when that serries was out of the way nobody went ahead of Liston. McNeely was a tune up.

Radmacher and London were merely tune ups and London was actually a fair contender in his own right.

So really Machen and Folley were too good to be tune ups and always behind Liston and ingo when it counted. That's why they never got a shot at Floyd.

 

What Suzie doesnt get is just how bad the Machen-Folley fights were. Not just the first one but both. Those fights were so putrid nobody wanted to see those guys. Go back and read what everyone was saying about those fights and then tell me that Cus had no case for not fighting those guys at the time. Their first fight was legendarily dull and the second was only a **** hair better.