Footwork - the best ever?

Blood Green · Apr 21, 2010

Calzaghe. He almost always dictated the pace of the fight and kept it in the center of the ring.

Bummy Davis · Apr 21, 2010

Ali,Tunney,Archer,Pep, Pastrano,

burt bienstock · Apr 21, 2010

Of the fighters I have seen in person, Willie Pep was the quickest, and certainly the least hittable'''
But Benny Leonard in the bout with Lew Tendler impressed me with his gliding out of range,than in punching range, with the ability to counter punch instantly...In addition Lew Tendler aside Benny Leonard was a deadly effective two handed puncher,complimenting his great footwork...

ricardoparker93 · Apr 22, 2010

META5 said: ↑

Ali's footwork was, however, excellent, but naturally, there are lower weight proponents that did it better. Ali favoured circling to the left and didn't always circle to the right with the same fluidity, whereas someone like Pep or Robinson looked much easier moving in either lateral direction. Ali's p4p leg movement, however, may be unparalleled, from the night where they say he put it all together against a mismatched Williams to the subtle planting of feet and diagonal foot shifts displayed against Foreman that opened Big George up for the 1-2s and right hand lead that puffed up George's face.

Ali's movement was much more than just 'running' - Ali moved in and out of range, pivoting and shoulder rolling, showing different angles, intentionally creating range where he is hittable. With a pivot of the feet, a shoulder roll, instinctive head reflexes and an excellent penchant for effective distance negotiation, that target would now be gone and his opponent would miss badly. This is demonstrated against the jab of Liston and against the combination of Terrel in that famous clip that we should all be aware of. It's very interesting to watch the movements of Robinson and Pep as one can see the fluidity and grace of movement that Ali replicates in Robinson and the angle negotiation, pivoting and subtle shoulder rolls of Pep that are apparent in Ali's style. Whilst Ali, a big man by any era, at 6'3" and 212 lean lbs in his prime, is a complete specimen with regard to the speed and the grace of his leg movement e.g. against Brian London, look at the speed with which he gets in and out of range to throw lead left hooks and the way he spins off of the ropes when his back hits the ropes, it is clear to me that his ability to execute the style doesn't quite hold up with Pep's seemingly endless stamina or Robinson's, dare I say, superior grace and pizzaz.

Ray Leonard, although not p4p better in my opinion, demonstrated better footwork than Ali because he showed more consistency. He could go in and out, had the footspeed, could move laterally in both directions and could take the fight forward to more effect - of course, they had different physical qualities at their prime weights that make this distinction seemingly elementary.

One thing that Hagler rarely gets the credit he deserves, IMO, is the way that he used his legs in his prime. Comfortable with leading with either foot, he switched in and out of stances, with ATG class. He could stick and move, turn aggressor, keep range and used his legs very well as part of his defence with subtle dips and great headmovement.

Duran's footwork is the evolution of what Dempsey started in 1919. Not only could he circle and box with those who were deemed better 'boxers' as he did in Montreal for brief moments, but he was as clinical and, arguably, more agile than a prime Tyson in closing space and destroying a man to the midsection and head in combination. The speed with which Duran intimidates Ray Leonard in the first fight by closing down, using feints and a gauging jab, before exploding with the right hand and then slipping, rolling and using his feet to get close and break Ray up to the body is a work of art. I watched this fight again just three days ago and marvelled at all the subtle artistry and intangiables on display from both men here ... in fact, I'll take it as far as saying that despite the commendable and warrior effort put forth by Ray, Duran started playing with him and if not for the sadistic aspect of his personality that would play with someone like Ray akin to a cat that keeps a mouse alive to inflict but further injury, Duran could have won more decisively in Montreal if he had wished, such was his command and mastery of his own abilities that night. These abilities started off with his absolutely incredible footwork.

Dempsey and Mike Tyson both have incredible stalker footwork for differing reasons. Dempsey combined his footwork with a pendulum swinging upper body movement that set him up to explode force into an opponent from either side with the mere slip of a punch. Prior to the Willard demolition, the whole sequence of the first knockdown is set up by Dempsey's excellent footwork and headmovement. He shifts, he sidesteps, retreats, steps forward, waits for a jab, he slips and as he does, he changes his feet to allow him to springboard his hooks into a now open target. Tyson - just watch his early training footage. He was an incredibly drilled machine, intent on using what I would call super aggressive counter punching footwork. His balance and athleticism were p4p a specimen - that kind of muscle explosion, agility and coordination in a man of his dimensions is as incredible as the fluid backwards poise and movement of a prime Ali, when you consider the speed and grace with which these highly athletic and technical moves were executed.

Naploes - for me is the correct answer to this thread. I think his footwork was effortlessly effective and this for me is what makes for the best boxers. The ability to do the simple things effortlessly in a way that makes your body one fluid fighting machine. Watch Napoles, past his apparent prime of 135 lbs, move with such an ease and mastery of range, that he is never out of range, rarely is over-reaching with his punches, misses and is never off balance, always has his feet set up to move seamlessly from offence to defence and back again. He's the guy that I would use as a template to show a young novice starting out how to do it properly - the guys aforementioned, all harder to replicate well, IMO, due to the specific innate physical qualities needed to execute the styles to that degree of success. Simply put, Napoles' footwork is physically easier to replicate, but technically, perhaps, harder to master. To do this - to master the simple things to the degree that they are as unconscious as breathing is to gain that rarerified atmosphere of ascending the abilities of your peers in such subtle ways that can only be discovered by looking at what is done differently and the oxymoronic joy of discovering that it is as complex as looking at the simplest of details.

Walcott's footwork was excellent, however, I wonder if sometimes it was to his own detriment to be so flashy. Such a style, whilst beautiful to watch, wouldn't always sit well with judges, especially in his time. There is also the chance that he could get complacent and then get caught, using such a style.

Sweet Pea ... what fantastic footwork from a man who did such a technically sound thing wrong on such a consistent basis. For a man that crossed his feet and opened himself up to being timed and dumped on his ass with a well timed straight right hand, he did things in the ring that I thought shouldn't be possible. His ability to spin a man in one well timed pivot and have them back to the ropes, with his jab popping in their faces was a mere thing of beauty. His use of squats, pivots, angles, changes of direction and habitual turning of his back to an opponent and doing that little quick footsteps jive to get back to the centre of the ring, both infuriated opponents, irritated referees and captured the public's imagination and distaste for his showmanship. Pea was excellent and still managed to make such a technically flawed mistake as crossing his feet throughout his career.

Roy Jones - incredibly fast in and out, didn't always have the best balance or ring awareness when doing it. Here's a guy that was amazing to look at from a physical point of view, but when you look at it technically, he got away with fundamental mistakes, sometimes trapping himself in corners or on ropes where he didn't need to be. However, when a man has been blessed with his gifts, as shown with Ali, Pernell Whitaker and others, you can get away with making technical mistakes because your physical qualities allow you to get away with things that arguably only the very best could exploit in you.

B-Hop is a man that uses his footwork to such an extreme that he will utilise it tactically to completely nullify an opponent's assets, before imposing his own considerable assets. Tito, although one dimensional and overrated in the wonderful asset of omniscient hindsight, was a live and dangerous opponent. Hop took him completely out of the game and this is what he is capable of doing against so many. He was neither the fastest, nor the most flashy, but his footwork was another example of doing the simple things extremely well and understanding the fundamentals of the sweet science.

Conclusively, I don't think one can ascertain whom had the best footwork because of such definitive criteria as p4p comparisons, stylistic use of fundamentals, reflexes and such discriminatory factors as relative levels of athleticism and stylistic preferences in the viewer. I would think that it's better to look at the issue in the way that McGrain offers for Joe Louis. One must observe with respect to a fighter's particular stylistic qualities and then analyse the footwork in that regards, both for technical competence and stylistic qualities. Whilst I could make an argument for a whole host of fighters, many of them mentioned in the above text, many not mentioned, I think I'm most comfortable with using the vague criteria of effortless efficiency and I'm looking at men like Napoles, prime Hagler, Robinson, perhaps Sal Sanchez as those that I would use as examples if teaching somebody to be an effective fighter.
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Great post that answered my question. Sanchez hasn't been mentioned much but he had brilliant footwork and as you said both he and Napoles didnt have to rely on physical attributes or athleticism. I was just watching the Sibson fight with Hagler and was impressed by how easily he moved around the ring pumping the jab, before moving forward cutting it off and ending the fight.

Thanks :good

ricardoparker93 · Apr 22, 2010

rekcutnevets said: ↑

Whenever I see footwork mentioned, Julio Cesar Chavez always comes to mind.

Chavez cut the ring off as well as anyone, which is an aspect of footwork. That wasn't all he did well. Chavez had a real knack for range and distance. Chavez knew where to position himself to deliver some hurt to his opponents.

Chavez was normally stronger than the fighters he faced, so he was often the aggressor. There was just something about the way he did it that stands out from other fighters. Chavez wasn't hell bent on simply coming forward. Chavez was bent on being in the best position to land his combinations. If an opponent started coming forward, Chavez would step in whatever direction it took to maintain his desired range. I remember Emanuel Steward, during his brief stint as Chavez' trainer, stating that he never new how well Chavez could "box" until he worked with him in the gym.

Watch some Chavez footage. At times it looks as though he is dancing with his opponents, the way he goes back and forth to keep his desired distance.
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Chavez at lightweight was a superb fighter defensively and offensively. As you say a mastery of distance and the way he would spin is opponents (I remember the Rosario fight as an example of this). At 140 I feel he became more of a plodder and was more susceptible to being hit, but was still brilliant at cutting off the ring. Good post.

Gesta · Apr 22, 2010

McGrain said: ↑

I think this is a meanginless question these days.

Ali has had a few mentions in the thread, and rightly so. He's a good pick. But his footwork is not economical. I read that Ali was preparing a variation on the rope-a-dope as early as Liston I, becuase he knew that he couldn't box in his natural style for 15 rounds against a predator. The reason is flamboyant footwork where he takes many more steps than he needs to going backwards and sideways. So, brilliant footwork to see, in terms of technical difficulty executed with great ease and perfect footwork for enhancing his style (most important criteria) but - who's to say that it's better footwork than Joe Louis had?

Louis was easier to hit becuase of his footwork, often lablelled "shuffling". Nobody contrasts more violently with Muhammad, he is so inelegant by comparison. But Louis's footwork perfectly enhanced his style, also. It was economical in the extreme. Consqueuently Louis carried his power extremely late, and he devastated some of his trickiest opponents late in fights because of this. It worked beautifullly to tempt opponents just into his range whilst moving forwards, an absolute cornerstone of his style. A second cornerstone is that he was always in punching position. So brilliant footwork, that I would say is arguably better than Ali's.

So it's a a very difficult question with no right answer which is probably why nobody has yet offered up a single name. Your question is a bit easier because you want a guy who is more modern. I offer you Hasegawa. Here is a fighter that came up with slight balance issues, corrected them and started knocking everyone out. Beautiful, elegant footwork that is also non-showy and all about the next punch. It's enabled him to tear a huge whole in the division.
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Good point.

Bummy Davis · Apr 22, 2010

burt bienstock said: ↑

Of the fighters I have seen in person, Willie Pep was the quickest, and certainly the least hittable'''
But Benny Leonard in the bout with Lew Tendler impressed me with his gliding out of range,than in punching range, with the ability to counter punch instantly...In addition Lew Tendler aside Benny Leonard was a deadly effective two handed puncher,complimenting his great footwork...
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Benny was not in my time but I heard and from films, he had great feet

Bokaj · Apr 22, 2010

McGrain said: ↑

Ali has had a few mentions in the thread, and rightly so. He's a good pick. But his footwork is not economical. I read that Ali was preparing a variation on the rope-a-dope as early as Liston I, becuase he knew that he couldn't box in his natural style for 15 rounds against a predator.
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I actually think he performed some of his best footwork in the early rounds of FOTC. He had lost some athleticism by then and moved in a more economical, technically sound manner. Eventually he punched himself out and gassed, but as long as he kept it up it locked beautiful. If his guard had been better, I'd call that some of the technically best fighting on the retreat I've seen (in a p4p perspective).

El Bujia · Apr 22, 2010

McGrain said: ↑

Against Ballas though (possibly Jiro's best perfromance), he's bad for letting his man come and just stand right next to him. Was a ***** habit.
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I didn't notice. Ballas used a very minimalist approach to movement, opting instead to lure his opponent into him to counter-punch. A lot of subtle stylistic similarities between most of the top Argentinian fighters, even if they had differing methods of attack. They all seemed to learn from a slightly varied school of boxing, but a very sound one nonetheless.

Anyways, I thought Jiro fought a fighter of Gustavo's caliber about as well as he could've. He used his legs brilliantly, some of the most nimble lateral movement you'll see from him, which worked perfectly to throw off the range of a stationary fighter like Ballas. His increased workrate (he was throwing some beautiful combinations for the duration) worked perfectly to throw off Gustavo's reserved, counter-punching style. He just overloaded him. I thought his tactics were about as good as they could've been.

El Bujia · Apr 22, 2010

gasman said: ↑

Sugar Ray Leonard had the best footwork that I have seen in my lifetime. Others that impressed me are Barrera, Azumah Nelson, Bernard Hopkins.
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Not sure about the Nelson shout. I actually think at times it was one of his worst attributes.

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