For my 5,000th post : My Pound-for-Pound Top 50 Fighters of All-Time..

Ha ha, cheers, I think it's a better name too. :good

Rooster just degraded Leonard's 1st win over Hearns on another thread by saying Hearns was "3 years off his prime and 2lbs too light". I see what you mean.

 

Now that's very interesting Manassa, do you mind if I ask you why you think Armstrong is the GOAT?

 

Sorry, I've been offline for the past couple of hours.

Well, my answer would be that they are very different situations.

Archie Moore is taken to be a natural lightheavyweight, and he fought at 175 or above for the majority of his career, every fight from 1945 til 1963 was above 175, and his weight often fluctuated between 175 and 200 in this period, many many times he fought at closer to 200 than 175.

Roy Jones is a natural middle or supermiddle around 160-168lbs, and he only fought above 175 once in his career. He was a naturally smaller man, and him going up to 193 for one single fight was him going to a size completely unnatural to his body for a one-off.

The key difference is that whereas Moore's weight fluctuated, he did not concentrate solely on building muscle every time he went close to 200lbs, then burn it back off again like Jones did for the Ruiz fight. Moore's fluctuation in weight is more akin to that of James Toney, sometimes Moore came to the ring in better shape than he did other times. Sometimes this was intentional to allow him to have the bulk to compete with larger opponents, sometimes it was because he did not have time to prepare, and sometimes his weight was intentionally lower to allow him to have the speed and stamina for a lighter opponent.

That Moore was comfortable changing his size does not reflect badly on Jones, they are simply two different men, different body sizes and different body types. Jones ****ed his body up by piling on 20lbs of muscle then burning it off, Moore could put on weight and compete, then come to the ring trimmer and compete then too. The two things don't have much of a connection IMO.

 

OK, first off, you seem to be under the impression that I rate Jones higher than Moore - this is not the case. I rank Moore higher than Jones, not only that but I have him in a higher tier than Jones, for me he is clearly the greater fighter, if you check my actual top 50 you will see this.

We disagree here. Moore fought the majority of his career 175-200lbs. I believe Jones was a natural 160-168lbs fighter. Jones was not a natural lightheavyweight at all. For me, there is a clear difference here that means Moore's weight fluctuating north of 175lbs was not as big a deal for his body as it was for Jones's.

I have done. That's why Moore is higher and also in a higher tier, when I believe Jones was a greater fighter h2h.

I agree that it was a sign of Moore's greatness, another reason why I rank Moore higher and also in a higher tier. However, the weight difference is different and the effects of it were different. Moore did not put on 20lbs of pure muscle then burn it off, his type of weight gain and loss was totally different and the effects of it were totally different. The weight gain and loss of Moore and Jones can be compared in numerical terms only and this is a reductive way of viewing it. Putting on 20lbs in muscle is not the same thing as coming in bulky one fight and trim the next, a natural 168lbs fighter coming in ripped at 193lbs one fight and 175lbs ripped the next is not the same as a natural 175-200lbs man coming in bulky at 195lbs one fight and 175lbs trim the next. Sorry, but for me these are two entirely different situations.

You are basing your opinions on dubious hearsay and some article I haven't read, so this is what's causing our difference in opinion regarding Jones. I base my opinion on Jones's performances in his immediate pre-Ruiz fights (Kelly and Woods) and his immediate post-Ruiz fights (Tarver), and I see a clear difference in Jones's physical abilities, a difference far too profound to be attributed to age IMO.

We agree that Moore deserves to be ranked higher than Jones, we agree he was a clearly greater fighter (I place him in a tier above the tier that Jones is part of), but as for the rest, we shall have to agree to disagree.

 

Hmmmm. You only joined this month, and have but a handful of posts, and yet I "always argue about resume". :think Who are you reallly????

 

Dude stop sulking! If you've been shot down on this board it because you've taken strong psitions beyond your knowledge base. A big no no on here. A lot of the people on this board have been following boxing for years, and they get haughty when some 'Friday Night Fights' Joe comes in telling them what's what.

You are just as capable of knowing a lot about boxing as anyone else. But you've gotta take the time to educate yorself first.