For my 5,000th post : My Pound-for-Pound Top 50 Fighters of All-Time..

Those are the raw numbers, undeniable. But what do you make of the 1967 clash with Bennie Briscoe? The Ring describes Monzon as recieving a "hometown draw". I know you've overturned three Hopkins losses, Taylor I & II, and Calzaghe, in favour of your own cards, and that this is reflected in your scoring.

Briscoe at that time was Monzon's only name opponent. Let's look at some of the other guys he fought POST Briscoe. He kicked off with a great win against Jorge Fernandez - a very good fighter, but basically a welterweight. He then beat Aguilar, who was not so good, still a good fighter but I beleive he never left the continent. Now, a sampling of the other fighters he beat on his run to the title:

Ramon Rocha. 4-14. Lost 4 out of his last 5.
Juan Aguilar. 15-5. Won his last five, but a novice.
Doug Huntley. 16-9. Lost 4 out of his last 5.
Emelio Ali. 62-19. Lost 4 out of his last 5.
Eddie Pace. 32-22. Lost 2 out of his last 5.

Right before he was matched for the title:

Santiago Rosa. 7-2. Lost two of his last five.

The point is, Monzon did go unbeaten, but I honestly do beleive that he only fought one top line fighter during that time - a man who could be expected, perhaps, to beat him, or run him close - and he recieved a draw regarded as a little suspicious. I'm not attacking him - what he did afterwards was great, he beat a lot of good fighters, but he was protected, really protected, for a huge chunk of his career. Now look at the other names on your list. Robinson was arguably protected (Cocoa Kid, Charley Burley, Holman Williams), but he still has one of the best resumes on that list. I think you heavily overestimate this portion of Monzon's unbeaten stretch. Not worthless, of course, but not worth much in this type of company.

Between 1970 and 1977, Monzon was well matched and did his business.

Now, Moore. Between 1950 and 1960, his HUGE peak, Moore did loose. To Floyd Patterson and Rocky Marciano, all time greats at Heavy, and to Harold Johnson, who he dominated overall. Moore was a 175lb fighter at heart, but he kicked off at 160. Now, Moore was matched at the highest level at this time. He beat Harold Johnson (top 20 LHW, all time), Joey Maxim (for the title) Nino Valdes (top 10 HW for that Era), Maxim a couple more times, Bobo Olsen (smaller but great), Harold Johnson again.

In short, he beat better fighters, he was matched harder, he was matched above his best weight. For me, Moore is also a better fighter in terms of skillset, though I do not insist upon this, at all. If you feel the other way that is fine by me.

But even if you feel the other way, Moore must always, always be ranked above Monzon. And that's a hardline my friend. Anyway, have a think about it.

For me, Louis is a better fighter, out and out than Monzon, I think the difference is a bit clearer than it was between Moore and Monzon to be honest. It is still close but I'd say there's a sliver of daylight there. I'd rank Louis as #1 all time composite puncher just ahead of Tyson and Langford and Robinson, so for me, he is special. It's true that Louis was often bigger than the toughest guys he fought, but size, especially at HW, is only one factor, and not the most important. Walcott is a lock, I think, for the HW top 20. Bivins is a lock for all time top 65, for me. But that's all smoke and mirrors, what we're really taking about here is this - the best guys Louis fought are better HW's than the guys Monzon fought are MW's. Not a lot in it, but still.

Busy day?

Okay, I got to pick you up on this one. Johnson's resume nothing like justifies this lofty position - can you explain his placing to me? Wills has a better resume, and is arguably not less skilled.

I forgot some guys when I did my 100. It does happen. Billy makes my 50. Holman Williams - I think that may be an error, yeah. Williams has a better resume than most of the guys on that list, full stop.

Another guy you are going to want to look at is George Dixon. He is close to a lock in my view.

You're welcome. It's a good effort.

 

Thanks for saying that chap.

 

No doubt. But i'm sure it mattered to Briscoe

They are very good fighters, that's for sure. You might be right. I disagree that Griffith makes the top 15 middles of all time though, I'm not sure he would make my 20 to be honest with you.

I think if it consisted of more fights, and they both fought at one weight only, Monzon needs better fighters to be ranked above Louis. I don't think that he has them.