For Pac fans... Tale of the Tape

Sizzle · May 13, 2010

charlievint said: ↑

It's actually not this ^^^^ complicated! Manny is a special fighter and to beat anther speacial fighter you have got to have the style and tools in order to do so.

Talent wise.....Manny and Floyd are on level......Athletic ability...same thing. What seperates Manny and Floyd is right there on the surface for everyone to see....their styles.

Floyd is a great boxer, highly skilled, cautious and cool. He sticks to his game plan that can change when necessary. Not that Floyd is unbeatable or doesn't make mistakes b/c he does. The problem is most don't have the style or the tools to compete.

Manny on the other hand is very skilled, a offensive machine with a very unorthodox yet very effective style. Manny's attributes are similar to floyd's but Manny best attribute is his stamina and awkwardness.

Manny doesn't have a set rhythm in the ring..he's a fighter who is fluid at times and "shake n bake" the others. Darting in and out, left to right, punching from all sorts of angles in combinations. He's a pressure fight like no one has seen.

Floyd is a slick, defensive master counter puncher. He should be able to catch Manny b/c Manny is high volume and with being a high volume fighter you leave openings. With that said Floyd likes to wait for his opening to take place, sit back and counter....usually that is effective from guys in an orthodox stance with one......maybe two shots at a time.

Manny will not be orthodox......Floyd will not have an easy time anticipating his opponents next move b/c of his awkwardness and unusual rhythm. And Floyd will have a hard time finding breathing room to get off with his own offense.

Now with Floyd's "D"....he'll avoid much of Manny's offense...but not all of it. ANd YES....he'll land on Manny but I don't think it will be enough to win a decision b/c Manny will outwork and out hustle Floyd the majority of rounds.

Could Floyd win...YES....It's quite possible and probably the most likely outcome based on how things look on paper.. Floyd is bigger, taller, longer and has a classic text book boxing style. Where Manny is smaller, shorter with a very unorthodox style. But I see Manny having some kind of mental edge with Floyd already loosing in some regard by expressing his concern about Manny. He used a front of saying PAC was on roids and didn't want to fight a dirty fighter.

If they fight and if Manny wins best believe Floyd bringing up PAC being on some special Phillipine drugs that are undetectable by terrestrial testing.
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For such a thought out post I disagree with virtually everything you've said

crimson · May 13, 2010

Buzz Killington said: ↑

I've posted this in the comments a few times and Pac fans won't respond so I've decided to bring this to the general forum to get an answer...

The way I see it, Pac goes into his fight with Mayweather with major disadvantages:

1) Pac is shorter - 5'6 1/2" vs. 5'8"

2) Pac has shorter reach by 5"

3) Pac is susceptible to counters (see: EVERY fight he's ever had, vs. JMM)

4) Pac is susceptible to left hooks (see: destroyed right ear vs. Cotto)

5) Pac is susceptible to straight rights (see: vs. Morales, vs. Clottey)

6) Pac has known weakness to body attack (KO'd with body shot)

7) Pac hasn't shown ability to fight or handle a fighter moving backwards (see: EVERY fight he's ever had)

8) Unlike Shane Mosley, Pac doesn't have 1, or 2, or 3, or 4 punch KO power (see: all Pac TKOs... other than Hatton, Pac has not stretched any opponent over 140 pounds and all of them finished the fight on their feet after rounds of flush combinations from Pac. Even at lower weights, Pac TKOs almost all from accumulation)

9) Pac throws a lot, lands a little (Pac's total connect percentage almost always <35%)

10) Pac has no jab, eats the jab (see: every Pac fight, vs. Morrales, vs. Cotto)

These are just the 10 off the top of my head. Now can someone tell me which one of these does NOT play into Mayweather's hands? Can someone provide a SANE argument for why Manny will beat Mayweather if they meet?

Let's look at some other issues:

1) Pac beat DLH and Hatton in more impressive fashion than Floyd - let's look at the tape:

Pac/Hatton @140, Floyd/Hatton @147 - Floyd fought a bigger, stronger version of Hatton. Oh, that's right, 140 was Hatton's "best weight." So, let me get this straight... Pac can move up TWO weight classes from the Diaz fight and be FASTER and MORE COORDINATED while Hatton moves up ONE weight class and suddenly can't fight? Hatton walks around at 190... so am I supposed to believe that having 7 MORE pounds of muscle wouldn't have helped him in his fight against Floyd? And, if that is the case, how is it that Pac can do what almost NO fighter does by going up TWO weight classes and not lose any speed or coordination?

2) Pac/DLH @147, Floyd/DLH @154 - Am I now supposed to believe that Pac beating DLH at 147 was a better win than Floyd beating DLH at 154? DLH walks around at 160-165. He hadn't made 147 in over six years. No question that Floyd's win over a younger, stronger DLH was a better quality win.

3) Pac vs. Cotto @145 catchweight - Pac fought DLH at 147, but made Cotto come down to 145. Why? If the two pounds didn't make a difference, why not fight him at 147?

4) Pac "destroyed" Clottey @147 - OK, Pac throws 1200 punches against a stationary opponent, hammers his body and DOESN'T KO him? Pac's supposedly vicious body attack could not get Clottey to drop his guard... where was all of Pac's vaunted punching power? And how do you land only TWENTY PERCENT against a guy who isn't punching back? Even if you make the excuse that Clottey was in his shell, wouldn't a guy with Pac's supposed power and open access be able to get Clottey to drop his guard?

5) Pac's "KO" power - Other than Hatton, who has Pac KO'd with one punch... or two... or three... or four, etc. DLH and Cotto were still standing after being nailed with flush combination after flush combination. Diaz only succumbed to Pac's assault after 9 brutal rounds of pummeling. Pac stunned Cotto with two flush counters and couldn't get him to sit down even after 12 rounds. Clottey took 1200 of Pac's best and he looked better after the fight than Pac. Shane Mosley has a history of stunning and KOing people with one punch... Pac doesn't. PERIOD.

I'm still trying to figure out why people think Pac will beat Mayweather. Mayweather recuperated immediately after getting hit with two SSM right hands... am I supposed to believe Pac is a harder puncher even though there is absolutely no proof of that?

Let's put the nuthugging behind us and address the issues. If Pac fans are serious, then someone PLEASE offer some RATIONAL reason why Pac will beat Floyd.
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Why are you posting this with your alt?

[url]http://www.eastsideboxing.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6815695&postcount=25[/url]

Buzz Killington · May 13, 2010

the_brigand said: ↑

Now...
Lets examine this "overnight" argument that you're making.
1. When fighting at 130 Pacquiao was routinely coming into the ring in the low 140's.
2. Two years later Pacquiao is coming into the ring in the range of 148-150

OMG he gained 6-8lbs.!!!! He must be cheating he put on 5% of his body weight! Why don't we take a look at someone like Adamek, he just went from fighting at LHW to fighting at HW. He would walk into the ring at 190 and now walks into the ring at 220...that's 15%.
Where is the outrage?

and FYI Pacquiao has NOT gotten any faster.
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Hmmm... so why wasn't Pac KOing people at 126? With a size advantage like that he should have been rocking people at 126 to 130. But his KO percentage is more prolific at the HIGHER weight class. So he couldn't KO someone at 130 weighing 12-14 pounds more on fight night but can TKO people at 147? Does that sound right to you?

Pac definitely hasn't gotten slower.

puga_ni_nana · May 13, 2010

UliUli said: ↑

INTERESTING enough is that AS PAC HAS MOVED UP from 130 his KO % went up from 75% to 85% :think:think:think

How many fighters getan increase in KO ratio as they move up?
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i don't get it. first you guys think he is an over-hyped fighter who cherrypicks opponents above 130 and now you think he has got better because his ko percentage has increased from 75% to 85%? which really is true for you bitter-ass haters?

Buzz Killington · May 13, 2010

UliUli said: ↑

INTERESTING enough is that AS PAC HAS MOVED UP from 130 his KO % went up from 75% to 85% :think:think:think

How many fighters getan increase in KO ratio as they move up?
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Good question

Buzz Killington · May 13, 2010

crimson said: ↑

Why are you posting this with your alt?

[url]http://www.eastsideboxing.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6815695&postcount=25[/url]
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Not me. Someone obviously liked the argument and reposted it. Don't hate me cuz I'm beautiful.

puga_ni_nana · May 13, 2010

Buzz Killington said: ↑

Hmmm... so why wasn't Pac KOing people at 126? With a size advantage like that he should have been rocking people at 126 to 130. But his KO percentage is more prolific at the HIGHER weight class. So he couldn't KO someone at 130 weighing 12-14 pounds more on fight night but can TKO people at 147? Does that sound right to you?

Pac definitely hasn't gotten slower.
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he fought only 3 times at 126 and stopped two of his opponents. so which opponents at 130, aside from larios did he enjoyed 12-14 pounds of advantage on fight night?

Buzz Killington · May 13, 2010

charlievint said: ↑

My point exactly.....the USADA's testing measure only catches 5% of it's athletes doping and most of the users they catch are caught with THC.:rofl

I won't question the statments that are somewhat questionable from Manny and his team but at the same time those are hard questions to have to answer to if you are clean or dirty.

The fact is Manny has been KNOWN to be supersticious and has also known to NOT LIKE giving Blood and Floyd knew that.

My biggest question is "WHY" ask Manny to test? Floyd has stated that he'd beat the brakes off of him...he said he's smaller and over hyped and that he'd GLADLY humiliate him for his biggest pay day.

Yet he's requesting Blood tests from an easy pay day? which actually killed the fight? Which cut into his money? Seriously...the guy calls himself "MONEY" yet he didn't want the easy payday? I don't know bro...that is a bit suspect to me.
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I think Pac going from a talented Featherweight to a monster Welter is suspect to me. But to each his own:good

charlievint · May 13, 2010

Sizzle said: ↑

For such a thought out post I disagree with virtually everything you've said
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Much appreciated bro. Your feedback is very well thought out yourself. We can agree to disagree.:yep

sdsfinest22 · May 13, 2010

eko718 said: ↑

Heh... We have the same impression... very similar to what I posted moments after you.
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HAHA...GOES TO SHOW THAT THEY REALLY ARE THE WAY WE THINK.."FOLLOW ONE FIGHTER AND WHATS GOING ON WITH HIM AND KNOWS LITTLE ABOUT THE SPORT ITSELF, YET THEY ACT LIKE THEY BEEN WATCHING IT FOR YEARS":good

Buzz Killington · May 13, 2010

puga_ni_nana said: ↑

he fought only 3 times at 126 and stopped two of his opponents. so which opponents at 130, aside from larios did he enjoyed 12-14 pounds of advantage on fight night?
Click to expand...

Didn't say he had a weight "advantage." Please read carefully.

For that matter, you didn't post anything confirming his fight night weight vs. the opponents.

charlievint · May 13, 2010

Buzz Killington said: ↑

I think Pac going from a talented Featherweight to a monster Welter is suspect to me. But to each his own:good
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On the surface one can understand your stance on this matter but again.....he got with Roach as a feather weight who was already very talented.....he just didn't have the foundation or resources to get the most out of his abilities.

His progression comes from 2 things......natural god given ability that are unmatched by most of his peers. And the fact that Roach along with Manny have a tremendous relationship where Roach has "schooled" Manny and helped him evolve. Manny started out a lump of coal and has been polished into a diamond.

Floyd has been a diamond...polished and stunning since the AM days.

sdsfinest22 · May 13, 2010

puga_ni_nana said: ↑

i don't get it. first you guys think he is an over-hyped fighter who cherrypicks opponents above 130 and now you think he has got better because his ko percentage has increased from 75% to 85%? which really is true for you bitter-ass haters?
Click to expand...

WHY U ALWAYS TWISTING A POSTERS WORDS AROUND? TAKE IT FOR FACE VALUE MAN..QUIT TRYING TO TWI$T THE $HIT:deal

NoHomeJerome · May 13, 2010

Buzz Killington said: ↑

I've posted this in the comments a few times and Pac fans won't respond so I've decided to bring this to the general forum to get an answer...

The way I see it, Pac goes into his fight with Mayweather with major disadvantages:

1) Pac is shorter - 5'6 1/2" vs. 5'8"

2) Pac has shorter reach by 5"

3) Pac is susceptible to counters (see: EVERY fight he's ever had, vs. JMM)

4) Pac is susceptible to left hooks (see: destroyed right ear vs. Cotto)

5) Pac is susceptible to straight rights (see: vs. Morales, vs. Clottey)

6) Pac has known weakness to body attack (KO'd with body shot)

7) Pac hasn't shown ability to fight or handle a fighter moving backwards (see: EVERY fight he's ever had)

8) Unlike Shane Mosley, Pac doesn't have 1, or 2, or 3, or 4 punch KO power (see: all Pac TKOs... other than Hatton, Pac has not stretched any opponent over 140 pounds and all of them finished the fight on their feet after rounds of flush combinations from Pac. Even at lower weights, Pac TKOs almost all from accumulation)

9) Pac throws a lot, lands a little (Pac's total connect percentage almost always <35%)

10) Pac has no jab, eats the jab (see: every Pac fight, vs. Morrales, vs. Cotto)

These are just the 10 off the top of my head. Now can someone tell me which one of these does NOT play into Mayweather's hands? Can someone provide a SANE argument for why Manny will beat Mayweather if they meet?

Let's look at some other issues:

1) Pac beat DLH and Hatton in more impressive fashion than Floyd - let's look at the tape:

Pac/Hatton @140, Floyd/Hatton @147 - Floyd fought a bigger, stronger version of Hatton. Oh, that's right, 140 was Hatton's "best weight." So, let me get this straight... Pac can move up TWO weight classes from the Diaz fight and be FASTER and MORE COORDINATED while Hatton moves up ONE weight class and suddenly can't fight? Hatton walks around at 190... so am I supposed to believe that having 7 MORE pounds of muscle wouldn't have helped him in his fight against Floyd? And, if that is the case, how is it that Pac can do what almost NO fighter does by going up TWO weight classes and not lose any speed or coordination?

2) Pac/DLH @147, Floyd/DLH @154 - Am I now supposed to believe that Pac beating DLH at 147 was a better win than Floyd beating DLH at 154? DLH walks around at 160-165. He hadn't made 147 in over six years. No question that Floyd's win over a younger, stronger DLH was a better quality win.

3) Pac vs. Cotto @145 catchweight - Pac fought DLH at 147, but made Cotto come down to 145. Why? If the two pounds didn't make a difference, why not fight him at 147?

4) Pac "destroyed" Clottey @147 - OK, Pac throws 1200 punches against a stationary opponent, hammers his body and DOESN'T KO him? Pac's supposedly vicious body attack could not get Clottey to drop his guard... where was all of Pac's vaunted punching power? And how do you land only TWENTY PERCENT against a guy who isn't punching back? Even if you make the excuse that Clottey was in his shell, wouldn't a guy with Pac's supposed power and open access be able to get Clottey to drop his guard?

5) Pac's "KO" power - Other than Hatton, who has Pac KO'd with one punch... or two... or three... or four, etc. DLH and Cotto were still standing after being nailed with flush combination after flush combination. Diaz only succumbed to Pac's assault after 9 brutal rounds of pummeling. Pac stunned Cotto with two flush counters and couldn't get him to sit down even after 12 rounds. Clottey took 1200 of Pac's best and he looked better after the fight than Pac. Shane Mosley has a history of stunning and KOing people with one punch... Pac doesn't. PERIOD.

I'm still trying to figure out why people think Pac will beat Mayweather. Mayweather recuperated immediately after getting hit with two SSM right hands... am I supposed to believe Pac is a harder puncher even though there is absolutely no proof of that?

Let's put the nuthugging behind us and address the issues. If Pac fans are serious, then someone PLEASE offer some RATIONAL reason why Pac will beat Floyd.
Click to expand...

That's good analysis Leonard. Now tell Floyd to drop those tests if it's so easy.

IsaL · May 13, 2010

charlievint said: ↑

My point exactly.....the USADA's testing measure only catches 5% of it's athletes doping and most of the users they catch are caught with THC.:rofl

I won't question the statments that are somewhat questionable from Manny and his team but at the same time those are hard questions to have to answer to if you are clean or dirty.

The fact is Manny has been KNOWN to be supersticious and has also known to NOT LIKE giving Blood and Floyd knew that.

My biggest question is "WHY" ask Manny to test? Floyd has stated that he'd beat the brakes off of him...he said he's smaller and over hyped and that he'd GLADLY humiliate him for his biggest pay day.

Yet he's requesting Blood tests from an easy pay day? which actually killed the fight? Which cut into his money? Seriously...the guy calls himself "MONEY" yet he didn't want the easy payday? I don't know bro...that is a bit suspect to me.
Click to expand...

Floyd said No tests no fight.

ALL Pac has to do is test...THAT IS ALL.

Floyd wants an even playing field.

Why is Pac avoiding random tests like it was the damn PLAGUE????? :think

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