For Pac fans... Tale of the Tape

Buzz Killington · May 13, 2010

pejevan said: ↑

So, you can counter after being hit?
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Did you actually read the post? It's called FEINT and COUNTER.

blastmaster122 · May 13, 2010

Buzz Killington said: ↑

1) The jabs were telegraphed, so they were easily timed and countered.

2) Watch Pac drop his right hand with the counter. A feint with the jab then a quick left hook will neutralize that straight left. Feint with the jab and a straight or hook right also neutralizes it. Floyd will counter Manny's counter all day.

3) Floyd's jab is crisp. He pulls it back quick and keeps his right hand high tp pick off counters.

Pac will get set up all day.
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1. That's my point. No matter how good your jab is, when you start the motion, something (shoulder, head, whatever) gives it off and allows Pac to time it. That's what Roach meant when he said that he looks for habits, not mistakes. A habit doesn't necessarily have to be a mistake.

2. Your left jab feint into a left hook has to be perfectly executed, and even then it doesn't assure that you don't get hit or that you hit Pac. One, a hook off a feinted jab is very likely going to be an arm punch because you're feinting and then punching with the same hand (not just power, but your left hook comes out slower than if you threw it straight). Feinting the jab and then coming with the right is a much better idea. However, it doesn't work as well if Manny's coming with the straight left counter, because his back covers a lot because of the way he throws his left. His right hook counter to the jab is a different story, and that's where his right hook counter can be neutralized with a left feint into a straight right.

3. It goes back to #1, it's so hard to disguise a jab completely from getting timed. You have to keep Pac honest by feinting and using the right, because feinting and punching with the same hand won't bother him a lot (and typically he's actually pretty good at recognizing that and making the actual left hook miss, not so much with the feint left and punch right).

drkjck · May 13, 2010

Buzz Killington said: ↑

I've posted this in the comments a few times and Pac fans won't respond so I've decided to bring this to the general forum to get an answer...

The way I see it, Pac goes into his fight with Mayweather with major disadvantages:

1) Pac is shorter - 5'6 1/2" vs. 5'8"

2) Pac has shorter reach by 5"

3) Pac is susceptible to counters (see: EVERY fight he's ever had, vs. JMM)

4) Pac is susceptible to left hooks (see: destroyed right ear vs. Cotto)

5) Pac is susceptible to straight rights (see: vs. Morales, vs. Clottey)

6) Pac has known weakness to body attack (KO'd with body shot)

7) Pac hasn't shown ability to fight or handle a fighter moving backwards (see: EVERY fight he's ever had)

8) Unlike Shane Mosley, Pac doesn't have 1, or 2, or 3, or 4 punch KO power (see: all Pac TKOs... other than Hatton, Pac has not stretched any opponent over 140 pounds and all of them finished the fight on their feet after rounds of flush combinations from Pac. Even at lower weights, Pac TKOs almost all from accumulation)

9) Pac throws a lot, lands a little (Pac's total connect percentage almost always <35%)

10) Pac has no jab, eats the jab (see: every Pac fight, vs. Morrales, vs. Cotto)

These are just the 10 off the top of my head. Now can someone tell me which one of these does NOT play into Mayweather's hands? Can someone provide a SANE argument for why Manny will beat Mayweather if they meet?

Let's look at some other issues:

1) Pac beat DLH and Hatton in more impressive fashion than Floyd - let's look at the tape:

Pac/Hatton @140, Floyd/Hatton @147 - Floyd fought a bigger, stronger version of Hatton. Oh, that's right, 140 was Hatton's "best weight." So, let me get this straight... Pac can move up TWO weight classes from the Diaz fight and be FASTER and MORE COORDINATED while Hatton moves up ONE weight class and suddenly can't fight? Hatton walks around at 190... so am I supposed to believe that having 7 MORE pounds of muscle wouldn't have helped him in his fight against Floyd? And, if that is the case, how is it that Pac can do what almost NO fighter does by going up TWO weight classes and not lose any speed or coordination?

2) Pac/DLH @147, Floyd/DLH @154 - Am I now supposed to believe that Pac beating DLH at 147 was a better win than Floyd beating DLH at 154? DLH walks around at 160-165. He hadn't made 147 in over six years. No question that Floyd's win over a younger, stronger DLH was a better quality win.

3) Pac vs. Cotto @145 catchweight - Pac fought DLH at 147, but made Cotto come down to 145. Why? If the two pounds didn't make a difference, why not fight him at 147?

4) Pac "destroyed" Clottey @147 - OK, Pac throws 1200 punches against a stationary opponent, hammers his body and DOESN'T KO him? Pac's supposedly vicious body attack could not get Clottey to drop his guard... where was all of Pac's vaunted punching power? And how do you land only TWENTY PERCENT against a guy who isn't punching back? Even if you make the excuse that Clottey was in his shell, wouldn't a guy with Pac's supposed power and open access be able to get Clottey to drop his guard?

5) Pac's "KO" power - Other than Hatton, who has Pac KO'd with one punch... or two... or three... or four, etc. DLH and Cotto were still standing after being nailed with flush combination after flush combination. Diaz only succumbed to Pac's assault after 9 brutal rounds of pummeling. Pac stunned Cotto with two flush counters and couldn't get him to sit down even after 12 rounds. Clottey took 1200 of Pac's best and he looked better after the fight than Pac. Shane Mosley has a history of stunning and KOing people with one punch... Pac doesn't. PERIOD.

I'm still trying to figure out why people think Pac will beat Mayweather. Mayweather recuperated immediately after getting hit with two SSM right hands... am I supposed to believe Pac is a harder puncher even though there is absolutely no proof of that?

Let's put the nuthugging behind us and address the issues. If Pac fans are serious, then someone PLEASE offer some RATIONAL reason why Pac will beat Floyd.
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according to this analysis, theres no way in hell pac will beat floyd and that he has all the disadvantages in the world.yet mayweather thinks that there is no way in hell that pac can be that good without using peds.,.

Buzz Killington · May 13, 2010

blastmaster122 said: ↑

1. That's my point. No matter how good your jab is, when you start the motion, something (shoulder, head, whatever) gives it off and allows Pac to time it. That's what Roach meant when he said that he looks for habits, not mistakes. A habit doesn't necessarily have to be a mistake.
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When you develop an autonomic response like Pac has with his left hand counter, you can't control whether you throw it, you just respond to stimulus. So Pac can be baited into throwing that punch all night. If you knew EXACTLY what punch someone was going to throw, that'd give you an advantage, right? Floyd is going to MAKE him throw that punch whenever he wants simply to counter it by feinting the jab. So Floyd will immediately have an advantage. It's almost like mind control. Floyd will make Pac throw the punches HE wants him to throw, not Pac, by actually taking advantage of Pac's training. That's why Floyd practices general purpose skills and not particular techniques, so his own training and tendencies won't be used against him.

blastmaster122 said: ↑

. Your left jab feint into a left hook has to be perfectly executed, and even then it doesn't assure that you don't get hit or that you hit Pac. One, a hook off a feinted jab is very likely going to be an arm punch because you're feinting and then punching with the same hand (not just power, but your left hook comes out slower than if you threw it straight). Feinting the jab and then coming with the right is a much better idea. However, it doesn't work as well if Manny's coming with the straight left counter, because his back covers a lot because of the way he throws his left. His right hook counter to the jab is a different story, and that's where his right hook counter can be neutralized with a left feint into a straight right.
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Not if it's a counter. The target's own momentum increases the power of the shot. That's how Floyd is able to hurt people while moving backwards. And Pac doesn't feint with his jab because he gets hit with right hand counters too easily. Pac isn't a strategic fighter.

blastmaster122 said: ↑

. It goes back to #1, it's so hard to disguise a jab completely from getting timed. You have to keep Pac honest by feinting and using the right, because feinting and punching with the same hand won't bother him a lot (and typically he's actually pretty good at recognizing that and making the actual left hook miss, not so much with the feint left and punch right).
Click to expand...

It's easy to keep a jab from getting countered, simply snap it out and back. Floyd's jab is not only stiff but one of his quickest punches. It's almost impossible to time and I've never seen it effectively countered even with straight rights. Plus, Floyd will have a reach advantage. And Pac is a complete sucker for a counter left hook... check his right ear after the Cotto fight. He'll be walking into Floyd's check hook all night.

Daft P · May 13, 2010

The thread starting post is a very good one and summarizes everything quite well in favour of Mayweather. Thats the reason Mayweather is favoured my many. I am not a Pac fan but I would like to point out some arguments in favour of Pac.

Mayweather is hittable, Mosley showed this. Pacquiao is the fastes opponent Mayweather has faced since Judah. Add to this Pacquiao's power and stamina. And add to it what every Pac opponent has emphasized - the problem Pac's angles pose to opponents (Diaz, Oscar, Clottey all said it). Added these together there is a reasonable chance of Pac hurting seriously Mayweather. That will make this fight exciting.

I am 100% sure that if Pac is in the ring in round 2, not Mosley, Mayweather goes down. I dont say he will get KOd, but could easily go down.

davebenoit · May 13, 2010

I prefer to wait for the fight to happen. I am not good at analyzing. I've been proven wrong by Pac so many times before.

caneman · May 13, 2010

Buzz Killington said: ↑

I've posted this in the comments a few times and Pac fans won't respond so I've decided to bring this to the general forum to get an answer...

The way I see it, Pac goes into his fight with Mayweather with major disadvantages:

1) Pac is shorter - 5'6 1/2" vs. 5'8"

2) Pac has shorter reach by 5"

3) Pac is susceptible to counters (see: EVERY fight he's ever had, vs. JMM)

4) Pac is susceptible to left hooks (see: destroyed right ear vs. Cotto)

5) Pac is susceptible to straight rights (see: vs. Morales, vs. Clottey)

6) Pac has known weakness to body attack (KO'd with body shot)

7) Pac hasn't shown ability to fight or handle a fighter moving backwards (see: EVERY fight he's ever had)

8) Unlike Shane Mosley, Pac doesn't have 1, or 2, or 3, or 4 punch KO power (see: all Pac TKOs... other than Hatton, Pac has not stretched any opponent over 140 pounds and all of them finished the fight on their feet after rounds of flush combinations from Pac. Even at lower weights, Pac TKOs almost all from accumulation)

9) Pac throws a lot, lands a little (Pac's total connect percentage almost always <35%)

10) Pac has no jab, eats the jab (see: every Pac fight, vs. Morrales, vs. Cotto)

These are just the 10 off the top of my head. Now can someone tell me which one of these does NOT play into Mayweather's hands? Can someone provide a SANE argument for why Manny will beat Mayweather if they meet?

Let's look at some other issues:

1) Pac beat DLH and Hatton in more impressive fashion than Floyd - let's look at the tape:

Pac/Hatton @140, Floyd/Hatton @147 - Floyd fought a bigger, stronger version of Hatton. Oh, that's right, 140 was Hatton's "best weight." So, let me get this straight... Pac can move up TWO weight classes from the Diaz fight and be FASTER and MORE COORDINATED while Hatton moves up ONE weight class and suddenly can't fight? Hatton walks around at 190... so am I supposed to believe that having 7 MORE pounds of muscle wouldn't have helped him in his fight against Floyd? And, if that is the case, how is it that Pac can do what almost NO fighter does by going up TWO weight classes and not lose any speed or coordination?

2) Pac/DLH @147, Floyd/DLH @154 - Am I now supposed to believe that Pac beating DLH at 147 was a better win than Floyd beating DLH at 154? DLH walks around at 160-165. He hadn't made 147 in over six years. No question that Floyd's win over a younger, stronger DLH was a better quality win.

3) Pac vs. Cotto @145 catchweight - Pac fought DLH at 147, but made Cotto come down to 145. Why? If the two pounds didn't make a difference, why not fight him at 147?

4) Pac "destroyed" Clottey @147 - OK, Pac throws 1200 punches against a stationary opponent, hammers his body and DOESN'T KO him? Pac's supposedly vicious body attack could not get Clottey to drop his guard... where was all of Pac's vaunted punching power? And how do you land only TWENTY PERCENT against a guy who isn't punching back? Even if you make the excuse that Clottey was in his shell, wouldn't a guy with Pac's supposed power and open access be able to get Clottey to drop his guard?

5) Pac's "KO" power - Other than Hatton, who has Pac KO'd with one punch... or two... or three... or four, etc. DLH and Cotto were still standing after being nailed with flush combination after flush combination. Diaz only succumbed to Pac's assault after 9 brutal rounds of pummeling. Pac stunned Cotto with two flush counters and couldn't get him to sit down even after 12 rounds. Clottey took 1200 of Pac's best and he looked better after the fight than Pac. Shane Mosley has a history of stunning and KOing people with one punch... Pac doesn't. PERIOD.

I'm still trying to figure out why people think Pac will beat Mayweather. Mayweather recuperated immediately after getting hit with two SSM right hands... am I supposed to believe Pac is a harder puncher even though there is absolutely no proof of that?

Let's put the nuthugging behind us and address the issues. If Pac fans are serious, then someone PLEASE offer some RATIONAL reason why Pac will beat Floyd.
Click to expand...

Here's your answer in summary:

Because using logic in predicting fights involving Pacquiao has almost always failed. Boxing logic doesn't apply to Manny Pacquiao. Where have you been?

sdsfinest22 · May 13, 2010

pejevan said: ↑

It's Official :

Mayweather is 45***0-0

***includes considered wins against Maragrito, Pacquiao, Williams

Why would there be a need to fight when offically he won already!

IDIOTS and NEWBIES
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atsch

Odiboy · May 13, 2010

Many advantages for Floyd. Pacquiao's advantages: lefty stance, fast footwork, punch workrate (stamina?), unorthodox style, and age. I believe Manny is also an under-rated counter-puncher. Alot of his knockdowns are scored with counters. Both fighters have heart and speed. Both would be fighting a style that I don't believe they have encountered before. That's why this fight needs to be made!

sdsfinest22 · May 13, 2010

Odiboy said: ↑

Many advantages for Floyd. Pacquiao's advantages: lefty stance, fast footwork, punch workrate (stamina?), unorthodox style, and age. I believe Manny is also an under-rated counter-puncher. Alot of his knockdowns are scored with counters. Both fighters have heart and speed. Both would be fighting a style that I don't believe they have encountered before. That's why this fight needs to be made!
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HIS FAST FOOTWORK WILL BE VOID...FLOYD MAY NOT HAVE THE FASTER FEET BUT HE IS MUCH MORE TECHNICALLY SKILLED IN THAT PART....HE'LL SLOW THE TEMPO OF THE FIGHT WITH THE BETTER FOOTWORK AND OUTBOX MANNY...MAYBE CATCH HIM LATE N GET THE T/KO:good

agila2004a · May 14, 2010

the_brigand said: ↑

First of all I don't understand why you're trying to stir the pot on this, no rational fan is picking Pacquiao over Mayweather, it's just a fight we'd all love to see.

Now...
Lets examine this "overnight" argument that you're making.
1. When fighting at 130 Pacquiao was routinely coming into the ring in the low 140's.
2. Two years later Pacquiao is coming into the ring in the range of 148-150

OMG he gained 6-8lbs.!!!! He must be cheating he put on 5% of his body weight! Why don't we take a look at someone like Adamek, he just went from fighting at LHW to fighting at HW. He would walk into the ring at 190 and now walks into the ring at 220...that's 15%.
Where is the outrage?

and FYI Pacquiao has NOT gotten any faster.
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:happy:happy
actually, pac did not move up in weight but simply stopped draining himself before weight in and fought at his natural weight.

AFBlues · May 14, 2010

Buzz Killington said: ↑

I've posted this in the comments a few times and Pac fans won't respond so I've decided to bring this to the general forum to get an answer...

The way I see it, Pac goes into his fight with Mayweather with major disadvantages:

1) Pac is shorter - 5'6 1/2" vs. 5'8"

2) Pac has shorter reach by 5"

3) Pac is susceptible to counters (see: EVERY fight he's ever had, vs. JMM)

4) Pac is susceptible to left hooks (see: destroyed right ear vs. Cotto)

5) Pac is susceptible to straight rights (see: vs. Morales, vs. Clottey)

6) Pac has known weakness to body attack (KO'd with body shot)

7) Pac hasn't shown ability to fight or handle a fighter moving backwards (see: EVERY fight he's ever had)

8) Unlike Shane Mosley, Pac doesn't have 1, or 2, or 3, or 4 punch KO power (see: all Pac TKOs... other than Hatton, Pac has not stretched any opponent over 140 pounds and all of them finished the fight on their feet after rounds of flush combinations from Pac. Even at lower weights, Pac TKOs almost all from accumulation)

9) Pac throws a lot, lands a little (Pac's total connect percentage almost always <35%)

10) Pac has no jab, eats the jab (see: every Pac fight, vs. Morrales, vs. Cotto)

These are just the 10 off the top of my head. Now can someone tell me which one of these does NOT play into Mayweather's hands? Can someone provide a SANE argument for why Manny will beat Mayweather if they meet?

Let's look at some other issues:

1) Pac beat DLH and Hatton in more impressive fashion than Floyd - let's look at the tape:

Pac/Hatton @140, Floyd/Hatton @147 - Floyd fought a bigger, stronger version of Hatton. Oh, that's right, 140 was Hatton's "best weight." So, let me get this straight... Pac can move up TWO weight classes from the Diaz fight and be FASTER and MORE COORDINATED while Hatton moves up ONE weight class and suddenly can't fight? Hatton walks around at 190... so am I supposed to believe that having 7 MORE pounds of muscle wouldn't have helped him in his fight against Floyd? And, if that is the case, how is it that Pac can do what almost NO fighter does by going up TWO weight classes and not lose any speed or coordination?

2) Pac/DLH @147, Floyd/DLH @154 - Am I now supposed to believe that Pac beating DLH at 147 was a better win than Floyd beating DLH at 154? DLH walks around at 160-165. He hadn't made 147 in over six years. No question that Floyd's win over a younger, stronger DLH was a better quality win.

3) Pac vs. Cotto @145 catchweight - Pac fought DLH at 147, but made Cotto come down to 145. Why? If the two pounds didn't make a difference, why not fight him at 147?

4) Pac "destroyed" Clottey @147 - OK, Pac throws 1200 punches against a stationary opponent, hammers his body and DOESN'T KO him? Pac's supposedly vicious body attack could not get Clottey to drop his guard... where was all of Pac's vaunted punching power? And how do you land only TWENTY PERCENT against a guy who isn't punching back? Even if you make the excuse that Clottey was in his shell, wouldn't a guy with Pac's supposed power and open access be able to get Clottey to drop his guard?

5) Pac's "KO" power - Other than Hatton, who has Pac KO'd with one punch... or two... or three... or four, etc. DLH and Cotto were still standing after being nailed with flush combination after flush combination. Diaz only succumbed to Pac's assault after 9 brutal rounds of pummeling. Pac stunned Cotto with two flush counters and couldn't get him to sit down even after 12 rounds. Clottey took 1200 of Pac's best and he looked better after the fight than Pac. Shane Mosley has a history of stunning and KOing people with one punch... Pac doesn't. PERIOD.

I'm still trying to figure out why people think Pac will beat Mayweather. Mayweather recuperated immediately after getting hit with two SSM right hands... am I supposed to believe Pac is a harder puncher even though there is absolutely no proof of that?

Let's put the nuthugging behind us and address the issues. If Pac fans are serious, then someone PLEASE offer some RATIONAL reason why Pac will beat Floyd.
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