For the people insisting Rocky was "hard to hit" and had "underrated cleverness"

Louis throwing shade at Mike Tyson before Mike was even born!

Your complete quotes talk about how he improved. Perhaps the people who are saying the things you mention in the thread title are talking about Rocky’s best self, not the version who was on the rise but still learning.

One hallmark of greatness in any athlete in any sport is the ability to continue to improve and hone their skills rather than reach a plateau and stay there. (Dang, now it sounds like I’m throwing shade at Tyson.)

 

Pull counters are nice. They are not easy to time, but when they work they are effective. It's usually better to roll, pull back or slip, than to block. It gives you two hands to counter an opponent who has missed and might be temporarily off balance.

We were taught to use the uppercut in a similar way. If the opponent was coming forward, throwing punches, not respecting your punch, we were taught to take a half step back, turning (torquing) the body at the same time and, when the rear foot set, throw an uppercut while pivoting the rear foot and shifting the weight to the front. It works with the rear hand or the front hand, of course you have to torque the body the opposite way if using the lead hand uppercut. When the timing worked out it was nice, even if it didn't work, it gave the other guy something to think about. And from the rear hand uppercut, a weight shift from front to back with a follow up hook, from the front hand uppercut, a weight shift from rear foot to front and the follow up cross. (there are so many people fighting out of a "southpaw" stance now that I try to use front and back hands instead of left and right.)

 

Thanks for the info, this was the technique I was referring to that both Toney and Marciano do - @cross_trainer this is the clip 44 seconds in against Ruiz, Toney dips this way throughout and very often at heavyweight because he’s too short to take it on the shoulder.

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@cross_trainer just added the clip to the post…

 

Actually, most do.

They put an asterisk by every Tyson loss as if it didn’t happen. “He had sex in Tokyo.” “Evander butted him.” “He didn’t really lose, he got DQ’d. Could happen to anybody.” “He was old” x3.

They also ignore flogs like Bonecrusher and act as if Tony Tucker was a hall of famer just for standing upright, etc.

Most on here evaluate the best version of a guy. I think, and Louis expressed the same, that Rocky was a better fighter later. He wasn’t perfect, I don’t think he beats quite a few guys I can name, but he was better than who he fought each time he fought them, and while older some of those guys were great fighters (Ezz, Walcott, Moore).

This version of Joe was on a nice run beating some decent opposition before running into Rocky. No, it wasn’t the prime version of Louis but as Joe himself noted, it wasn’t the best Marciano would be either.

 

Guys often say bad things about the guys they lose to. We have posted the quotes many times where opponents said he was awkward and hard to hit. It's because he fought out of a very low crouch, using his lack of height to an advantage.

 

Louis was coming off a decent winning streak was he not?

But yeah: compared to his heyday he was significantly diminished, I will agree with that.

 

If it's me the snark is always just bubbling under the surface, in case anybody is confused

 

I like Marciano. He's just an anomaly in that I wouldn't pick him to beat a lot of the guys that he did beat (on paper) but in the ring, when its the 13th and the other dude is all lumps, I have to wonder how I could have been so wrong. Marciano simply doesn't LOOK like he ought to have been a world champion, nevermind an ATG.

 

Under 200 pounds you have
Dempsey
Louis
Patterson
Spinks
Holyfield
Moorer
Roy Jones
James Toney
Andre Ward
Artur Beterbiev
Dmitri Bivol

Seems like a pretty formidable group. How many of them do you have him beating?

 

"I couldn't avoid Louis' jabs I just had to take them."Marciano.

 

His crudeness was part of what made him awkward and difficult, you might be able to hurt him a bit but he's gonna hurt you a lot worse