For those here who box...A CHALLENGE!

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by cross_trainer, Sep 30, 2007.


  1. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    We need a brave soul for this job.

    I wondered if someone would be willing to do the Classic section a big favor with a bit of hands-on history. If you have any friends willing to spar with you, spend a few sessions working on the stuff in Fitzsimmons' manual:

    http://books.google.com/books?id=ODYBeua_xEIC&pg=PA11&dq=fitzsimmons+self


    ...and tell us how it goes, what you see as Fitz's strengths and weaknesses, etc.

    Anyone interested?
     
  2. Stonehands89

    Stonehands89 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I can tell you that his seeming preference for blocking is not ideal. His version of slipping punches involve the body as a whole, which is a bit.... primitive. If a modern fighter fought precisely like Fitzsimmons, sans all of the modern adaptations and ...yes.... improvements, he would be likely to get get hurt.

    On the other hand, I have used the shift with great success. For those not familiar with this move, it is when an orthodox fighter feints or throws a right and then suddenly swings his right foot to the front outside of the opponent's front foot, assuming a southpaw position and a perfect angle to counter. At the same time delivering a short left hook to the solar plexus, to the chin, or both, one after the other.

    By the way, both Duran and Marciano employed this technique. I suspect that their common cornerman/cutman -Freddie Brown- brought it to them.

    The suggestion from this corner is that the pioneers still have something to teach and remind the modern fighter of. If they could come back from the grave and walk into Kronk or Stillman's, we would improve their game with more advanced (read: efficient) adjustments that have been made since.
     
  3. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    Interesting...and thanks for the evaluation of the shift.

    But I suspect (though I cannot yet prove) that Fitzsimmons' style may be better than the sum of its parts. In other words, a modern fighter using his blocking, or head movement, or body punching would be at a disadvantage....but if a modern fighter used the COMPLETE style, all of the seemingly weird ingredients would mesh together well into a useful whole.

    What do you think?
     
  4. Stonehands89

    Stonehands89 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Well, I can't quite agree.

    Fitz's basic stance was designed for what was really a different sport and a different time. His hands are carried far too low and he relies on head movement while his hands are at his waist. He leans back from punches instead of properly stepping back with your hands up. Instead of efficiently parrying a jab, he 'pushes' the arm away later.

    The stance of the pioneers was not tight, it was more of a rangy stance akin to a wrestler who punches. Therein lies the crux of my dissent -not to mention the fact that he was trained in a style suited for more rounds. Modern street fighters are not dissimilar in their stance because they have to watch for not only punches but also the possibility of the guy shooting in. Street fighters are pretty easy to catch because the boxer will slip and step right in at an angle in a tight formation before punching short to the chin. Pioneers, like street fighters, are more apt to "withdraw" (to use Fitz's word) when a punch is thrown than to angle in and counter like a modern well-trained boxer.

    Now, there is a club of good posters (you, Janitor, Jimmy Shimmy among them) who dissent from where I stand ...but I think that most of the opposing arguments are rooted in revisionism, speculation, hearsay, and myth.

    Don't misunderstand -I have reverence, sheer reverence for Fitz, Gans, Dixon, Wilde, McGovern, Langford, et al. but I stridently believe that skills evolve over time (and did so, peaking after 1940... until they reached a plateau in the sixties). I'd even allow for exceptions -Benny Leonard (although he came after the Cobweb Era) most of all would have done well in any era just as he was.
     
  5. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    As usual, fascinating stuff. :good

    Since you seem to fully understand Fitz's methods, might there be the possibility that you could test them out under (controlled) sparring conditions? That would go a long way toward convincing me one way or another. It would certainly go a long way to move my theorizing and speculation into the realm of testable fact.

    I am thinking about doing likewise, though I'm rather busy with other boxing-related stuff at the moment as well.
     
  6. Kolya

    Kolya Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I have two newbies at my gym who are my weight class, when I begin taking them through sparring I'll try some of the stuff listed out if I can, since they're so new and learning I'll have a minimal chance of getting hurt if it doesn't work.
     
  7. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member

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    Teach one of them from the Fitz manual, and one the usual way and spar them together :D

    Just kidding Koyla. Look forward to hearing your results. Goodness help us if you go all the way to the world title due to unbelievable results with the Fitz technique! Janitor will have a field day on us! :)
     
  8. Dempsey1238

    Dempsey1238 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    And the gloves, dont forget the tiny gloves they used.
     
  9. achillesthegreat

    achillesthegreat FORTUNE FAVOURS THE BRAVE Full Member

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    Tell me 1 or 2 things you specifically want tried and I'll see if I can get something arranged on the weekend.
     
  10. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    Some of those photos are amazing! This stuff is the lost art of boxing, showing where and when to coutner. Part of it was taught to Fitz by Jim Mace himself. Nice post.

    As for will it work, it depends on what a fighters style is, and if he likes to counter and mix it up close. Not all fighters could pull this off.
     
  11. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    Thanks, Kolya. :good
     
  12. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    Hmm....So much to choose from. :D

    The stance would be the best starting point--it was unique by 19th century standards. Back foot flat on the floor, front heel off the ground like most fighters raise their back foot. Hands in typical "low" position, and leaning back as one of the main methods of evading punches. The jab was a little more like a fencing lunge, and in blocking straight punches you generally raised the arm to parry it upwards, as you see in the pictures.

    That should be just enough for one session, I should think.
     
  13. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    This is going to be VERY interesting when it's finished. I'm looking forward to it. :D
     
  14. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo VIP Member Full Member

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    I think that his suggestions for athletes not to drink or smoke were really cutting edge!!
     
  15. ChrisPontius

    ChrisPontius March 8th, 1971 Full Member

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    I can only see the chapters of the book but not read it, is that normal ?