Foreman : Deterioration of skills 1970 - '74

Foreman's skills did n't deteriorate in this time period. His mindset and team simply did n't think that some of them were necessary. After brutally clobbering Frazier,Norton and Roman,he was convinced that brute force was the thing. He simply believed 100% in his raw strength and power. We all know the script prior to Zaire. Ali's slickness would ensure that he lasted longer than the three guys mentioned above,but as soon as his 32 year old legs went,and he backed into the ropes,George would knock him out. Why did n't Foreman adapt when Ali was countering off the ropes so succesfully ? Easy. It was because Muhammad totally befuddled George. After Zaire George lost a lot of confidence in his own ability. This was evident when he had that close one with Lyle,and even more so against the totally shot Frazier in their return bout. The Foreman of 1973/74 would have knocked out the post Manila Frazier in ONE round instead of five.

 

Thought I'd agree with you for once Foreman should have been working Ali's body over, although I seem to remember he bust Alis kidneys up so he must have done a bit, still he should have been looking for what he could punch rather than firing at Alis arms. Its not like Foreman didnt land some masive bombs on Ali that wouldnt have taken out many men. Didnt Ali say h was out 3-4 times in this fight?

 

Yes. Although Ali slipped or blocked a lot of Foreman's head shots,a few did indeed get through. Only Ali could have adopted a strategy like that and be succesful.

 

I'm wondering if a fight between George Foreman and Larry Holmes might have looked any different. I and many others have picked Holmes to beat Foreman in a prime for prime match-up, but I don't know if Holmes would adopt the same kind of strategy that Ali did. Could he just pick George apart at a distance all night long? Or would he end up getting bullied into the ropes where he found that he could not use the same sort of lingering tactics that Ali applied? We do know that Holmes was terribly prone to getting tagged by big right handed fighters, and Foreman may very well have been the most formidable he ever faced in that department. I don't know.

 

Food for thought,is n't it ? I would make Holmes favourite in a prime for prime fight,but as you say,Larry was prone to getting tagged with big right hands. If Earnie shavers can deck him once,Foreman could repeat it once Holmes is up off the canvas.

 

My thinking on this is that Foreman did physically deteriorate a bit after he cut his eye during training. His stamina and conditioning in his lower body went down afterwards because he didn't put in the necessary roadwork.

For this reason, after the first round, he wasn't able to deploy his right hook underneath Ali's heart, I think you see him trying to get set to throw that punch,but stumbling.Maybe this lack of balance was because he lacked muscle mass in his legs or that the stabilising muscles weren't properly conditioned.

 

It wasnt like Ali was hard to hit in that fight. Ali was there to be pounded, and it was quite amazing he stood up to those shots. Most foes wouldnt have. Even Dundee acknowledged it was like being a dope on the ropes, rather than doing the rope a dope.
Foreman like Tyson was an ignoramous, but I disagree I think the style Tyson had required more discipline than Foremans and the bad habits affected his performances moreso than Foremans.

 

The jab would have helped, of course. Straighter punchers are always going to score and land more.

/END thread.

 

HORSE****! Ali was NOT that hurt at all by Foreman in '74..... NO WAY!! If anything, Ali was slower and more easy to hit against Norton in '76 at Yankee stadium...... That is where Dr. Pacheco said he saw blood in Ali's **** after the fight was over..... '76 was the turning point in Ali's life, career & health......... WORD!

MR.BILL

 

i thought pacheco saw blood after the shaver's fight

 

You make a good point. Foreman and his trainers got away from basic boxing skills and became overly fascinated with power.

 

Foreman's evolution from young promise to juggernaut champion exists, as much as Tyson's bona fide deterioration due to neglect of his craft, but evolution is not deterioration.

Tyson was jadedly talking about quitting the sport at the very press conference right after what is considered his peak performance. In hindsight, could Tokyo have been far off?

As befitted his larger-than-average height and dimensions for the time, Foreman was developed into a straight-standing, jabbing prober who seized the opening to crush his opponent with both hands. He had a powerful jab; heck, a Foreman whiff was scary. And it is reasonable to believe he prepared to use it often, as he actually did, as a relative novice against a durable veteran such as Chuvalo.

And he banged Chuvalo up a bit with it. But it was a huge left hook along the ropes that sealed the Canadian's fate. Foreman's bread-and-butter was and would always be savage aggression upon first chance.

He began probing against Ali in Round 1, but Ali was too fast to cooperate. His right-hand leads kept disrupting George's rhythm. A jab was useless at this point. Better to counter and/or pin Ali against the ropes, things Foreman did, and pretty well, under the circumstances of fighting a spoiling, jabbing, moving, slipping, clinching, leading opponent such as the Greatest.

George did about as best as could have been asked of him. Everyone expected crunch time to come as soon as Foreman had Ali in punching range. And crunch time it was! Foreman was not a fluid, short-punching, inside fighter like Frazier, or a swift, fluid, combination attacker like Tyson. He was a murderous clubber. And he used and landed every punch in his arsenal.

At crunch time, the underrated Ali simply proved to be the better fighter.