Foreman replaces Douglas against Tyson

This was a different type of jab though. it wasn’t a pumping, slick, counter double jab like Douglas had.

Tyson wanted the kind of jabs coming at him that George had, he would thread himself inside them to land his combinations or booming right. Tyson had the speed to cash in. remember, just one fight before Tokyo (even with the same crazy Tyson corner) frank Bruno - a great jabber- could not get his jab off against Tyson.

Nobody until Douglas could time a jab on Tyson. maybe not enough of Mikes opponents were mentally prepared to focus as well as they might but the truth was until Douglas nobody could punish Tyson with the jab.

Douglas feinted Tyson into a no mans land where mike could not reach Douglas but buster could reach him. Tyson bought the feint and a quick adjustment of footing (that foreman never had) meant Douglas could punish Tyson with a jab and a combination.

Tyson was not a shot Frazier when he met Douglas. He was not the energiser bunny who had lost a second of timing. Tyson was a fast primed athlete albeit lacking in the kind of deep water experience of dealing with a problem or possessing a plan "B". Plan "A" would be enough for old George. A powerful old cart horse getting by on hype, balls and smarts ...but mostly hype.

 

there is sharp but then there is speed and footwork. one out of three is not enough at elite level.

 

Douglas is no ATG but he produced an ATG performance. Tyson was still a young guy who had a lot of things his own way, was not ever stable or entirely focused and relied on talent alone a lot of the time.

Now imagine every heavyweight in history who was capable and stable enough to deal with an ATG performance, with hindsight you would have to exclude Tyson.

Old George foreman was not ready to produce an ATG performance.

 

Exactly. A 40 year old is NOT going to beat Mike Tyson. If you switched Foreman and Douglas on that night in Tokyo we might see a Foreman win (I'm a firm believer Tyson wasn't fit that night). Still, comeback Foreman is very overrated. If it hadn't been for his miraculous win over Moorer he wouldn't crack my ATG top 10.

 

Thanks Peteatsch

And by the way, it was a reply to Duo and not you:good

 

This one's for you Pete:stfu

 

And with all due respect, had it been old george ending mike's run and I suggested douglas would have been capable i'd be laughed off every forum on the internet.

People would point to the tucker fight, note tyson's power. Point to the bruno fight, note tyson's chin and conclude only a true atg could have defeated tyson that night.

We know that's not true. We know someone of the calibre of buster could defeat tyson that night. There are many many fighters of the calibre of douglas and old george is certainly fitting of that description. Hell hasim rahman is fitting of that description.

 

Bruno, for all his muscularity, didn't remotely have George's physical strength (no other top HW of the era did) or casual aggression in using it illegally to shove people back, let alone Foreman's punch resistance and durability. He wouldn't be threading George's jab while simultaneously stumbling backwards to regain his balance from push, after push, after push, after push, because that's how Foreman would be setting up his jabs. If Foreman wasn't hitting Mike, he'd be practicing sumo tactics. And if former CW Holyfield could manhandle Tyson like this (and Evander shoved him easily back in their rematch right before Mike lost his composure and bit him the first time), then George would really make this look like a man against a scared little boy.

Moorer? A former LHW who had successfully integrated the reality of competing against naturally larger HW competition, and a southpaw to boot. Also 6'2" with a 78 inch reach. A very different proposition for George than the squat, short armed Tyson, typically accustomed to having advantages in power and punch resistance. His only clear edge over Foreman in 1990 would have been hand speed, which wouldn't help him much more than it helped Patterson against Liston. Mike's ineffectual flailing while George was holding him by the shoulders at arm's length might actually be comical to look at (and humiliating for Tyson, who wouldn't remain composed for too long in this one).

No feinting by Foreman required here.

 

Holy "manhandled" a rusty version of Tyson. Not the pre-prison version that was fully capable of handing Foreman his own head on a platter.

 

Tyson had a similar work rate to Holyfield, who was battering fat George around the ring, in 1991 yet carried more power in his punch as well as faster hands and a better defense. Despite being past his best Tyson still had too much for Foreman to handle.

I can't believe this debate is still ongoing.

 

Tyson could have made more cash fighting Foreman times two than anyone else and ran the other direction without looking back. That's no myth. Foreman begged for the fight and even planted Adilson Rodriques dead in old Don King's lap as a calling card. The myth is that Tyson was some dynamic and fearless whirlwind that had "Unbeatable" in his DNA. He ducked the big payday for a reason. Foreman would've had him twisted up mentally a month before the weigh-in and thoroughly intimidated. I believe we would've all been shocked at how easy it would have been for Big George. Like an angry father taking a belt to his teenager for mouthing off. Tyson was an adolescent pretending to be a "tough guy". As others have noted, underneath the con-man smile and comedy act, George is absolutely ruthless.

 

On the contrary. King offered Foreman a good amount of coin and Foreman turned him down.

Who's ducking who again?

 

i like this thread. not sure who to pick but it requires more thought than i initially figured it would. keep up the debate!

 

Tommy Morrison had a blue print Tyson could not follow? I know Tyson was young, could get frustrated but he showed against Holmes that he was too much athlete for Wiley old timers who bypassed deserving contenders.

Patterson was **** scared of Liston, he froze, bringing nothing to his fights with Liston but a bag workout. Howard king also fought prime Liston and was not better than patterson. Likewise Old foreman is not 1962 sonny liston.
Young foreman beat up Frazier, but that was young foreman not old George. Frazier (who only had one gear- forward) was only a sitting duck because he was lacking elite competition and faded at that time.
Old Foreman got by on hype, for all his strength he still had to time Tyson's rushes to get a punch home, hes not doing that if Frank Bruno could not.

 

Surely, you realize that such discussions never, ever end.

If post prison Tyson was using steroids to regain bulk and strength, that would have been to better advantage for him. (I don't doubt that Holy has definitely used illicit growth enhancers.)

Evander is over 6'2" with a 78 inch reach, and possessed far better mobility to outmaneuver George some than Mike ever displayed. (Let alone heart.) Comparing their respective H2H attributes against Foreman doesn't wash as analogy. Yes, Mike had faster hands and better power, but not the stature and mobility to apply them as effectively as necessary. And was his defense in Tokyo indeed better than Holyfield's against George?

How is whether or not Tyson is rusty germane to his susceptibility to getting manhandled? He got smothered and frustrated by Bonecrusher prior to prison, at his supposed peak. What is there in Tyson-Smith to suggest Foreman couldn't have similarly gotten his paws on Mike's shoulders to aggressively shove him around rather than tie him up before Tyson's incarceration? George was getting slower by 1993, yet he still had no difficulty pushing the larger (and admittedly juiced) and more mobile Morrison around with a casual extension of his forearms.