Foreman replaces Douglas against Tyson

Difference is, Douglas DID show talent. Seldon straight up ****ing sucks.

Douglas DID beat Tyson. Seldon didnt.

Seldon did not have the heart, nor the chin, nor the size advantage to keep Tyson at bay and his so called jab was pitiful.

 

What kind of nonsense is this?

Seldon never looked as good pre tyson as douglas looked pre tyson?

Like saying tucker did beat douglas. Tyson didn't as proof tyson could never replicate tony's success.

His jab was pitiful? What and buster's was atg was it?

Douglas didn't luck out and hit the jackpot. Nor was he an underachieving closet great.

Mike didn't train hard, it's well documented, however that's only part of the equation. I'm sure mike didn't train hard for other fights he did win. Douglas brought to the table enough fundamentals and a decent enough trainer to come up with a good fight plan. He had a backstory meaning he was super determined that night. He was such an underdog he was under no pressure.

Douglas wasn't a mythical beast, he was a man who was able to capitalise upon the circumstances around him.

You could point to other fights where douglas seemed just as mentally weak as bruce. But there was nothing douglas could do that bruce couldn't.

In the same situation if bruce had the same motivation, i've no doubt he could be as successful.

 

I would question this. He looked pretty good battering Tucker with his jab
Who did Douglas look so great against anyway? The guys he faced pre Tyson werent anything special. Certainly on the level of an old Tucker?

Douglas was a far better fighter than Seldon. He had better footwork, better combinations and actually better heart. Both guys could be discouraged easily, but I think Seldon was worse. Douglas was bigger punched and combination and was a little meaner than Seldon, who really showed poor mental toughness when he was tagged. He fell apart against Bowe, Mcall and Tyson. He almost blew his shot at Tyson by having some shaky moments in the closing rounds of the Hipp fight. He was lucky to get the stoppage, because Hipp was starting to break his will and come on late in that fight.

 

I was being sarcastic when I said about looking good pre-tyson. the guy I quoted said douglas showed talent and seldon sucked. I disagree completely.

Douglas had better combos but his jab wasn't as good as bruce's and his footwork was on an even keel IMO. Douglas showed great heart that one night but aside from that he was pretty weak mentally speaking.

 

Yet douglas beat Tyson and mccall who both Knocked out seldon in important fights. If bruces power, speed and jab was as good as douglas how come he gets KOd by fighters douglas beat?

The tucker win was a good win for bruce - that was his tokyo if you like, but where as douglas also had world class belt holders still wanting to win fights on his resume like a 24-4 greg page and avoided but always capable trevor berbick that seldon does not. Aside from tucker all the elite fighters Bruce ever met knocked him out.

Bruce also blew it agianst a faded old timer like tubbs. This does not stack up well against a fighter like Douglas who for all his faults still beat 6 unbeaten fighters before his first title fight, beat 5 "at the time" rated contenders including 4 world champions. against Tyson seldon was 1-4 against elite fighters. Douglas 4-1.

 

Against Tucker and for large parts of the Hipp fight he looked every bit as good as douglas has looked in his career, barring tokyo.

Douglas was a legit top 10 contender going into Tokyo, noone is denying that. Also noone should deny he would not have gone down as one of Tyson's better wins.

I think my point is clear anyway. Douglas was not great, he was good enough to pull it off against Tyson in Tokyo and I think in the same situation with the same motivation, Seldon was every bit as good as Douglas.

 

Foreman wasn't taking Lakusta or most of those guys seriously. It was like sparring. I've seen Tyson decked when sparring. Being seriously focused is another thing completely. I watched Foreman spar with Cooney before their fight. George looked terrible. When they fought for real, George destroyed
him. George didn't need to bother with many of the fighters listed previously.
Obviously I think some would be surprised here. Foreman would have done much better than some are thinking.

 

Foreman, any version, would always have Tyson's number. George was just a bad matchup for Mike. His height, his jab, and his brute strength, would keep Tyson from rampaging inside. Foreman would maul him in the clinches. Tyson always was so passive when being clinched, and Foreman was much stronger than others who were able to pacify Mike inside. Foreman's chin would handle the shots that would land (and some would, obviously). Mike would have been psyched out after 5 or 6 rounds of eating jabs and failing to land more than one shot at a time. George would grab him or shove him everytime he got close, and supplement that gradual mauling with his hard jabs and chopping rights inside. George might get outlanded early, but would be demoralizing Mike. The undertrained, tactically deficient Tyson of Tokyo starts getting beaten up after 5 or 6, and eventually stopped by 8 or 9. George was probably at his best at that point of his comeback, and Tyson at maybe his worst, pre-prison.

The whole point of George's comeback was Tyson. He dreamed about Tyson, he prepared for Tyson. George would have forced himself through agony to beat Mike. George Foreman would not just beat Mike Tyson for the reasons I listed above, but also because of his superior will.

 

By 1990 foreman was beating aldison rodrigues and 45lb lighter ken lakusta. Foreman was not the right level to even test Tyson because he wasnt beating real rated guys. a lot of fighters never considered as world beaters beat the same guys as foreman. George never would have got past the real contenders at that time. The proof is in the pudding. comeback foreman was no better or worse than a multitude of fringe guys, B-listers who like george also had a tough fight with big foot martin.

 

Big Foot Martin? Another nothing fight. George was just keeping active until he got a title shot. George was just too heavy againt a 1991 Holyfield. If sharper, George would have stopped him. Again, George was just too heavy.

 

I think you are pulling my chain. why did he deserve a shot? who did he beat? Old george was not a world beater because he was not beating world rated fighters. In his entire comeback he fought only about 3 elite fighters and he only beat one of them -moorer, a guy who was always going to lose to who ever he fought next. there is a long list of contenders who would have taken foremans place that night and done a better job.

in over 30 comeback fights foreman, was 1-3 against elite fighters. This is not an ATG resume!

Foreman might have fought a few "names" like bert cooper, qawi and cooney but neither were rated at the time. cooney had not beat a rated fighter since 1981-an incredible 9 years earlier and only fighting 14 rounds in 8 years! 42LB lighter bert cooper was losing to big foot and ripe off a KO loss to nate miller never beat a rated fighter. qawi never beat a HW was also coming off losses and so much smaller. coetzer was tall but was pounded in his last two fights.

another group of names george met in his comeback were stewart, briggs, schultz and savarese, well there is a case he did not get the better of either of them!

 

No chain pulling. Foreman was just better than what you think. I believe George was over confident when he fought Holyfield. George thought he would get in some clean shots and take Holyfield out in two. He was just too heavy. Yes, that's George's fault. However, a focused, in shape, George was a danger to anyone in the 90's.

 

A motivated Bruce Seldon would have had potential but there was never such a thing. There was a motivated Buster Douglas, if only for a single night.

 

Its not nonsense. Its fact.
Doulgas Kod Tyson. Brucey took a DIVE.

Im afraid, i cant take a guy like Seldon seriously. Douglas looked alot better than Brucey.

Tucker was better than Seldon and so was Douglas

Theres a video on youtube (ill get it for u) of Buster Koing someone with his jab. Busters jab was ramrod like and fluid. Well Busters jab worked against Tyson, Bruceys didnt do ****. It will take more than just a jab to beat Mike Tyson. Unfortunately for Brucey....thats all he had.

He fought a great fight, with a efficient gameplan against an opponent who wasnt fully motivated or even prepared.

Douglas didnt just lay down for people. He froze ala Bruno, against Tucker, he got hit with some good shots. Seldons done it at least twice (Bowe/Tyson), hes a known diver.

He still wouldnt get up from the first punch Tyson lands.

 

I know how good George was. He is an ATG, he makes my top 10 HW list, however I think you are either confusing young George with old George or combining the merits of both versions to create a monster who never lived.
For this discussion we must concentrate on the fighter George was in 1989-90.

Holyfeild was not such a dominant champion, he was exciting because he made such hard work of most his fights, regardless of the merits of his opponents.

Bert cooper even gave evander a good fight, don’t get carried away with how well other undeserving challengers did against Holyfeild because whilst a great fighter himself evander is no yardstick. He would make a war out of the most routine fights then lose to moorer.