Foreman vs Lyle (early 1930s style)

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by The Kentucky Cobra, May 8, 2017.


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  1. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    So you can't distinguish between the level of technique in the brawling in Lyle/Foreman and the brawling in Holmes/Norton? Ok, that explains quite a lot.
     
    Bokaj, May 9, 2017
    Bokaj, May 9, 2017
    #46
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  2. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    The thing is, I haven't seen anyone here put the 30's HWs down over the board. I think everyone agrees that Louis looks great, and that there's a degree of sophistication to Schmeling and Sharkey. It's primarily Baer and Carnera that don't impressive everyone.

    But I can personally see the argument that Foreman doesn't look much better than Baer. I would probably say that George was better technically, but he definitely had the same kind of flaws to a large degree.
     
    Bokaj, May 9, 2017
    Bokaj, May 9, 2017
    #47
  3. The Kentucky Cobra

    The Kentucky Cobra Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    hmmm..what level of technique is different here? Holmes and Lyle throwing the exact same combo. Lyle actually looks a litte better throwing it. Both Norton and Foreman fail to defend.

    [url]https://gifs.com/gif/ken-norton-vs-larry-holmes-highlights-JZwJz9[/url]



    [url]https://gifs.com/gif/george-foreman-vs-ron-lyle-highlights-nZ4B6Y[/url]
     
    The Kentucky Cobra, May 9, 2017
    The Kentucky Cobra, May 9, 2017
    #48
  4. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    The excuse proffered by Reznik and Kentucky Slow Worm is that antiquated cameras gave us the impression the 30's guys were crap.The implication being if we saw Carnera on modern film he would be some immaculate stylist!
    When I asked them why other fighters of that period such as Louis Loughran,Armstrong ,Steele, Canzoneri, McLarnin ,etc look terrific I got no reply.
    Bottom line Carnera looked like a clumsy oaf ,easy to tag with a right hand, who pushed his jab, because he was, and he did!
    Baer looked like a wild swinging telegraphing banger because he was.
    That' s why Loughran and Braddock boxed his ears off.
    Loughran had he had another 40lbs on him,[he was conceding over 80!] would have out boxed Carnera too!
     
    mcvey, May 9, 2017
    mcvey, May 9, 2017
    #49
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  5. The Kentucky Cobra

    The Kentucky Cobra Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    Well fine, if your point is to safely jest with each other and not address my actual observations, than go for it.
     
    The Kentucky Cobra, May 9, 2017
    The Kentucky Cobra, May 9, 2017
    #50
  6. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    I can agree with the underlined .
     
    mcvey, May 9, 2017
    mcvey, May 9, 2017
    #51
  7. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I have addressed the hell out of your actual observations.

    In short: Foreman-Lyle is exciting but probably the big HW fight of the 70's with the lowest combined level of skill (Lyle-Shavers might be in contention) whether it is the original version or yours. Your version showed me absolutely nothing new. Anyone who'd put this forward as an example of how skilled 70's HWs were would show zero knowledge of boxing technique. Better?
     
    Bokaj, May 9, 2017
    Bokaj, May 9, 2017
    #52
  8. The Kentucky Cobra

    The Kentucky Cobra Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    No, you mocked me regarding a deliberately vague paraphrased observation of a Baer/Primo cilp without knowing what was actually said by me.


    I disagree regarding the combined level of skill. Lyle was actually a skillful boxer and boxed very well in the fight. See the contrast to Holmes throwing the same combo in a fight you maintain is of a higher technical caliber of brawl in highlight form.

    How can an existing clip show something new?
     
    The Kentucky Cobra, May 9, 2017
    The Kentucky Cobra, May 9, 2017
    #53
  9. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Even in the few seconds you selected to make your point you fail to do so.

    Foreman has zero guard (flail with his arms) and has his chin up in the air while Norton has one (the cross-armed defence is not standard textbook, but it is a guard), holds his chin down and blocks one right and ducks under another. Foreman shows no defence. Lyle misses an uppercut, just like Holmes misses an uppercut, but Foreman doesn't actually defend against any of the three punches thrown at him in the gif while Norton defends two of the four Holmes throws (two rights).
     
    Bokaj, May 9, 2017
    Bokaj, May 9, 2017
    #54
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  10. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Lyle had an ok form and technique for a guy his size at the time, but he was not one of the most skillful of the 70's HWs. Foreman was one of the least skillful of the top HWs at the time and this is one of his worst fights from a point of technical skill. If you can't see the lack of combined skill in this fight I don't know what to say to you.

    Wasn't the whole point of this exercise to show that they look worse in a black and white version that focusses to a large degree on their clinching? Otherwise, what was the point?

    I think the lack of combined skill is there to see in either version.
     
    Bokaj, May 9, 2017
    Bokaj, May 9, 2017
    #55
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  11. mrkoolkevin

    mrkoolkevin Never wrestle with pigs or argue with fools Full Member

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    Agreed, not comparable at all.

    (Not to mention that the audience behavior and Norton's stumble suggest that he had been worn down and stunned by punches before the beginning of this segment, rendering it somewhat misleading)
     
    mrkoolkevin, May 9, 2017
    mrkoolkevin, May 9, 2017
    #56
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  12. The Kentucky Cobra

    The Kentucky Cobra Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    You refused to make a comparison between the two fights to back up your insult, so I made one for you so you can at the very least explain what you are seeing. Posing and mocking really isn't doing much.

    Foreman extends his open gloves to catch, Norton uses the cross arm. Both are valid defensive techniques, both fail in this situation as neither man is expecting a right hand lead.

    The uppercut appears to land for both men, snapping the target's head up.

    Before his stamina and chin failed him, he outboxed Ali more convincingly than any of his other 70s opponents. I'm not saying he is the most skillful of the 70's HWs, but he's not what you are making him out to be either.

    In the traditional sense. What you fail to account for was his physical attributes and how he maximized those to become one of the most successful heavyweights of all time. His punching technique was crude but it allowed him to load up on his punches and enforce his power advantage. You mock his "arm flailing" and while it failed him against Lyle in that sequence, his catching was often a very effective way of redirecting his opponent's attack and creating openings for his uppercuts.

    The point was spelled out in the opening post pretty clearly.
     
    The Kentucky Cobra, May 9, 2017
    The Kentucky Cobra, May 9, 2017
    #57
  13. The Kentucky Cobra

    The Kentucky Cobra Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    Norton is being built up as Foreman and Lyle's clear cut technical superior....that's interesting.

    There is more to Norton vs Foreman than Norton simply being "glass jawed"
    Norton had a longer reach than Lyle but couldn't land a glove on Foreman...

    Foreman's arm "flailing" catching Norton's jab, giving him time to duck a left hook, and catch a follow up uppercut.

    [url]https://gifs.com/gif/george-foreman-vs-ken-norton-legendary-night-hd-y8g0NW[/url]


    Norton confused by Foreman's extended gloves, his jab attempt smacked away.

    [url]https://gifs.com/gif/george-foreman-vs-ken-norton-legendary-night-hd-nZ4B1l[/url]


    Norton repeatedly getting his signature jab stuffed, resulting in Foreman anticipating his left hook and ducking it every time..

    [url]https://gifs.com/gif/george-foreman-vs-ken-norton-legendary-night-hd-NxANJz[/url]


    Lyle feinted his jab and shot right hand leads into Foreman's guard. Norton didn't make this adjustment. But you know, why examine the fights when we have antidotes and undisputed boxing lore truths? Lyle is simply an ok for a big man slugger, and Norton is a technician with a glass jaw, don't ever question this!
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2017
    The Kentucky Cobra, May 9, 2017
    The Kentucky Cobra, May 9, 2017
    #58
  14. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    If you know your boxing you know that Foreman's flailing arms (and that is not mockery, just an observation) isn't proper technique and wasn't effective for him when he faced someone who wasn't too overwhelmed with his offense to fire back. In his second career he had abandoned his outstretched arms for a cross armed guard, like Norton's.

    Of course Foreman had other assets, never said he didn't so don't know who you're arguing against, but his technique was lacking. Lyle had, as I said, decent skills, but nothing special. His strength, size and toughness was his main attributes. He won rounds against Ali when Ali stood against the ropes and did nothing, but when Ali finally started to open up it was his fight.

    If you can't see the difference in skill between Holmes-Norton and Foreman-Lyle (I pointed out some to you in those gifs) I won't waste time trying to teach you. I don't mean to sound arrogant when I say that, just explaining that I see a continued discussion as just stating the obvious over and over again.
     
    Bokaj, May 9, 2017
    Bokaj, May 9, 2017
    #59
  15. The Kentucky Cobra

    The Kentucky Cobra Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    See post #60 for the effectiveness of his flailing arms.

    It actually is proper technique within the confines of it's style.

    He adopted the cross armed because he was 40 plus years old, about 30 plus pounds heavier, and too slow to catch and parry.


    And Norton's main attributes was his size, strength, and stamina. Norton and Lyle are actually about the same size if I'm not mistaken.


    That's a restatement of what I already said, you just have a less rational explanation. In your version Ali just stood there for no reason, Lyle didn't get tired, Ali just decided it was time to open up for no reason.


    There's really no way you can argue the brawling in Holmes vs Norton as being technically superior to the brawling in Foreman by Lyle. But you chose that stance, and you can't seem to enforce it.

    The only rationale you have presented was Norton used a cross armed defense to ineffectively defend against a 3 punch combo while Foreman used a flailing arm defense ineffectively against a 3 punch combo. That's really your argument...
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2017
    The Kentucky Cobra, May 9, 2017
    The Kentucky Cobra, May 9, 2017
    #60
    reznick likes this.
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