Foreman vs Lyle (early 1930s style)

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by The Kentucky Cobra, May 8, 2017.


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  1. The Kentucky Cobra

    The Kentucky Cobra Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    That crazy Ali just laying on the ropes..while Lyle utilizes his "decent" skills.

    [url]https://gifs.com/gif/muhammad-ali-vs-ron-lyle-highlights-ali-knocks-out-lyle-LgyLxW[/url]


    [url]https://gifs.com/gif/muhammad-ali-vs-ron-lyle-highlights-ali-knocks-out-lyle-qj4GKR[/url]
     
    The Kentucky Cobra, May 9, 2017
    The Kentucky Cobra, May 9, 2017
    #61
  2. reznick

    reznick In the 7.2% Full Member

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    What did I say about that defense?

    Th ironic thing is Holyfield uses the same guard against Bowe, which is more or less the same guard that Lee Savold uses against Rocky. And you are too hypocritical and blind to see it. Because big muscles, sweat, light reflections. You don't even know how far behind you are :(
     
    reznick, May 9, 2017
    reznick, May 9, 2017
    #62
  3. The Kentucky Cobra

    The Kentucky Cobra Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    He's talking about me.

    I made a point that Baer kept his chin tucked and head low, so even though he was getting hit (only 2 of the 4 jabs there), he was protecting his chin and getting the openings he wanted. Bear would gladly take a reaching jab on the forehead to land an overhead right.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2017
    The Kentucky Cobra, May 9, 2017
    The Kentucky Cobra, May 9, 2017
    #63
  4. reznick

    reznick In the 7.2% Full Member

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    Ooooh sorry. He always talks about me so I just assumed it was another gif.
     
    reznick, May 9, 2017
    reznick, May 9, 2017
    #64
  5. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Fully agree. The footage of Gans was shot with even crappier cameras than that of Willard, but then I wouldn't be surprised seeing someone here claim that Willard's technique was just as good as Gans's "within the confines of his style".

    I still really can't get my head around that I actually have to argue that Holmes-Norton is a fight of higher technical calibre than Foreman-Lyle.
     
    Bokaj, May 9, 2017
    Bokaj, May 9, 2017
    #65
  6. The Kentucky Cobra

    The Kentucky Cobra Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    He tried to argue though Bear was protecting his chin, he was prone to being cut, I said obviously not since he only got stopped for cuts in one of his last career fights, and he ran out of counters for my stance.

    Now he just wants to restate the clip out of context and reword my argument with no quotes to try to make me appear foolish to people who are gullible enough to just take his word for it, or simply don't like my stance on things and are willing to agree with anything negative someone says about me. Oh well...
     
    The Kentucky Cobra, May 9, 2017
    The Kentucky Cobra, May 9, 2017
    #66
  7. The Kentucky Cobra

    The Kentucky Cobra Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    Your original statement is right here. Why reword it? We both know that wasn't your argument.

    Me: "They do more toe to toe brawling in that clip than Lyle/Foreman did in mine, so I'm not sure why you feel it's different."

    You: "So you can't distinguish between the level of technique in the brawling in Lyle/Foreman and the brawling in Holmes/Norton? Ok, that explains quite a lot."

    You complained I picked clips of Foreman/Lyle because the fight had too much brawling, yet provided a clip of Holmes/Norton that was mostly 3 minutes of them standing toe to toe and slugging, so you wanted to argue the brawling in one fight was more technical than the other.

    When pushed to explain you wouldn't answer, and when I compared two brawling clips, you complained about the clips, and could only argue Norton's defensive hand positioning was more technical than Foreman's.

    So is this now your argument..

    " Holmes-Norton is a fight of higher technical calibre than Foreman-Lyle."


    But don't worry it's safe to abandon your position and discuss a fictionalized recount of our argument with Mcvey. He will agree with anything negative you say about me, even if it contradicts his own stance on things.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2017
    The Kentucky Cobra, May 9, 2017
    The Kentucky Cobra, May 9, 2017
    #67
  8. Contro

    Contro Boxing Addict Full Member

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    The footwork is much better, more purposeful
     
    Contro, May 9, 2017
    Contro, May 9, 2017
    #68
  9. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    That's a lie. This was my original statement on Holmes-Norton vs Foreman-Lyle: "A less agenda driven choice would have been a clip like this. Do it in the same style and then we can have a look:" (clip to Holmes-Norton linked)

    Then you wrote:
    "-They do more toe to toe brawling in that clip than Lyle/Foreman did in mine, so I'm not sure why you feel it's different."

    To which I answered:

    "So you can't distinguish between the level of technique in the brawling in Lyle/Foreman and the brawling in Holmes/Norton? Ok, that explains quite a lot."

    This because I think Holmes-Norton is technically superior in every aspect, the brawling as well as the boxing. Surely you didn't believe that I put forth the argument that Holmes-Norton was technically superior in terms of brawling, but not in terms of boxing? This is getting silly and you are getting silly.
     
    Bokaj, May 9, 2017
    Bokaj, May 9, 2017
    #69
  10. The Kentucky Cobra

    The Kentucky Cobra Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    "So you can't distinguish between the level of technique in the brawling in Lyle/Foreman and the brawling in Holmes/Norton? Ok, that explains quite a lot."

    So you do in fact believe the brawling in the Holmes vs Norton highlights you posted is technically superior than the brawling in the Foreman vs Lyle highlights.

    And what exactly is your basis for that conclusion? Especially if it explains quite a lot...
     
    The Kentucky Cobra, May 9, 2017
    The Kentucky Cobra, May 9, 2017
    #70
  11. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Well I wrote this about the Gifs you posted of seconds of toe-to-toe in both fights:

    "Even in the few seconds you selected to make your point you fail to do so.

    Foreman has zero guard (flail with his arms) and has his chin up in the air while Norton has one (the cross-armed defence is not standard textbook, but it is a guard), holds his chin down and blocks one right and ducks under another. Foreman shows no defence. Lyle misses an uppercut, just like Holmes misses an uppercut, but Foreman doesn't actually defend against any of the three punches thrown at him in the gif while Norton defends two of the four Holmes throws (two rights)."

    And this goes for the rest, in essence. Especially Foreman has hands low and chin high with little head movement and often poor balance (as in that GIF). Therefore it becomes somewhat of rock-and-sockem-robots and that's why there are so many KDs and so much action. Holmes and Norton hold down their chins better, have better balance, block more (due to better guards), duck, slip, roll and ride more - and therefore they don't take quite the kind of flush shots Foreman and Lyle takes.

    Of course Holmes and Norton also make mistakes and of course Foreman and Lyle have some good moves, so there will always be the possibility for GIFs with such moments even though the reverse is more frequent. But that kind of argument never ends, so I won't indulge in it.

    What I can say though is that a good guard is independent of age, since a good guard affords protection that doesn't rely on speed or reflexes. Therefore there is no such thing as a lack of guard suiting a particular style or age. That's just another word for taking short cuts that your physical attributes allow you to get away with until you face someone that doesn't let you get away with them.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2017
    Bokaj, May 9, 2017
    Bokaj, May 9, 2017
    #71
  12. The Kentucky Cobra

    The Kentucky Cobra Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    See post #59

    And regarding Foreman's defense see post #60

    More knockdowns occur because both Foreman and Lyle are heavy handed where as Norton and Holmes typically lacked concussive power.

    I would strongly disagree. Holmes and Norton is a sick fight and probably features some of the most flush punishment exchanges of any HW fight in history.

    What I honestly think happened here. You posted a highlight video of Norton vs Holmes, assuming it was going to be technical, and perhaps not remembered the fight as it was. There's points in your video where Holmes is literally holding a hand on Norton's head and striking him with overhand rights..over and over...while Norton just stands there like a zombie. It's not pretty, not pretty at all.

    The footage doesn't lie. You can make all the generalized claims you want, but the footage doesn't lie.

    "Holmes and Norton hold down their chins better, have better balance, block more (due to better guards), duck, slip, roll and ride more"

    Do they really? The highlight video you proposed is full of gems like this:

    Norton eating multiple flush right hands to the jaw (there's a whole montage worth)

    [url]https://gifs.com/gif/ken-norton-vs-larry-holmes-highlights-zmj0V5[/url]

    Norton knocking Holmes' mouthpiece out

    [url]https://gifs.com/gif/ken-norton-vs-larry-holmes-highlights-P1DRXy[/url]

    A fighter tailoring their style to suit the loss of physical attributes over time does not invalidate the effectiveness of their past effort.

    For instance, you are arguing in favor of Holmes. Against Mercer, the older Holmes used a high guard more than he did in his prime, by the logic you are laying down here, his prime guard was not good? And in truth, it wasn't, he kept his left hand low and got caught with right hands alot. He had remarkable physical attributes though.
     
    The Kentucky Cobra, May 9, 2017
    The Kentucky Cobra, May 9, 2017
    #72
  13. reznick

    reznick In the 7.2% Full Member

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    Oh man if that was Baer in those gifs?
    Armageddon
     
    reznick, May 9, 2017
    reznick, May 9, 2017
    #73
  14. The Kentucky Cobra

    The Kentucky Cobra Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    Holmes was actually doing a Baer signature there, using the left to measure a wind up right. I thought modern heavies could see that coming a mile away and slip it.

    Maybe I'm failing to take into account subtle technical differences...that makes these two completely different moves.

    Close call...

    [url]https://gifs.com/gif/max-baer-vs-max-schmeling-MjzYGm[/url]


    [url]https://gifs.com/gif/ken-norton-vs-larry-holmes-highlights-zmj0V5[/url]
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2017
    The Kentucky Cobra, May 9, 2017
    The Kentucky Cobra, May 9, 2017
    #74
  15. mrkoolkevin

    mrkoolkevin Never wrestle with pigs or argue with fools Full Member

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    I missed part of the debate, so I don't know what it's going on, but for what it's worth, Holmes' "wind up" isn't nearly as conspicuous as Baer's in that footage. Looks like Holmes shoots a fast, straight right from his (low) guard, whereas Baer's seems to pull his arm back behind his body before walloping Max with a much wider, slower punch. Just my two cents on that brief bit of footage.
     
    mrkoolkevin, May 9, 2017
    mrkoolkevin, May 9, 2017
    #75
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