Foreman vs Marciano

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Dance84, Mar 9, 2020.

Who wins

  1. Foreman By Knockout

  2. Foreman By Decision

  3. Marciano By Decision

  4. Marciano By Knockout

  5. Draw

Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. RulesMakeItInteresting

    RulesMakeItInteresting Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Yeah @BlackCloud that was unexpectedly uncool of you to say. You're better than that.

    Chok isn't a racist.
     
    Fergy, George Crowcroft and choklab like this.
  2. RulesMakeItInteresting

    RulesMakeItInteresting Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I think one of the most pertinent points choklab made is how the Frazier of Foreman wasn't the Frazier of FOTC and before. He never seemed to "smoke" like he used to after the Ali fight.

    Watch rounds 9 to 11 FOTC, then watch the two title defenses (shoot, ANY fight) after. You'll see the difference.

    Not to take away from what George did, it was pretty astounding. The win over Norton was in some ways just as miraculous. They are two of the most incredible wins by anyone in any weight division.
     
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  3. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Calm down. As usual you have to rush to Rocky's defense instead of simply saying "good point" and moving on. You have to drag everyone to his level no matter what the subject.
     
  4. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Yeah, Foreman by 1974 still beat the best two heavyweights in the world in just about the most emphatic way.

    Often forgotten is that ingo Johansson did something similar when he beat the 2 best HWs in the world when he beat Patterson and Machen.
     
  5. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Boxing Addict Full Member

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    You just wrote in your own post the reason why joe never seemed to smoke. Foreman used the perfect game plain to derail him early and kill his rhythm before he could warm up. Everyone knows Frazier did his best work in the mid to late rounds.
     
  6. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    I didn’t drag it down to any low level. I simply agreed It was just as reasonable a point as Louis or Ali being knocked out in one round.
     
  7. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Boxing Addict Full Member

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    You were agreeing with yourself because I never said anything about Ali being knocked out in 1 round. That is a completely different discussion. Ali was far better at getting away and surviving when hurt than probably anyone. Foot work, head movement, clinching, etc.

    Which is exactly what I mean when i wrote you seem incapable of simply saying "good point I agree" if anyone says anything detrimental to Rocky's chances in a given matchup.
     
  8. RulesMakeItInteresting

    RulesMakeItInteresting Boxing Addict Full Member

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    This is SO true, and thanks much for bringing it up. I still feel Joe somewhat deteriorated after FOTC though. Just my opinion.

    Joe during the FOTC may have been the greatest heavyweight who ever lived imo.
     
  9. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    The point you made was it wasn’t impossible for Rocky to be knocked out in the first round. And I agreed it was equally as likely that Marciano, Joe Louis, Ali or somebody like that who was never knocked out in one round before could be. He’s no more likely, or less likely, since it never happened to any of them.

    so providing you mean Rocky is as likely to be knocked out as other men it never happened to, I am absolutely fine and dandy to agree and move on.

    absolutely nothing wrong with that.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2020
  10. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Boxing Addict Full Member

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    An aggressive fighter who lacks defense is more likely to be stopped in the first round than an elusive fighter who fights on the back foot. They do not have an equal likelihood.

    Sure It's possible Ali could be stopped in 1, but given his style and speed this is far less likely.
     
  11. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft 'Snarky Little Gobshite' - IntentionalButt Full Member

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    Well then I disagree with you, and am slightly bewildered.
    Given he easily destroyed a fighter who, not at the time but in general, consider superior to Marciano, I see no reason to think this is a difficult fight for Foreman.
    There's 100s of examples of superior fighter losing to fighters who had style advantages, simply based on styles. It's foolish to assume it doesn't matter. There may be other factors, but aside from maybe chin, Styles matter the most.

    Also, the argument you're putting together is bordering on the old cliché "Rocky would find a way".
    Well he does. Coz he ain't gonna be forcing Foreman back.
    Yeah, you probably do. My comment was tongue in cheek, but he definitely had better footwork than Marciano.
    Absolutely, no argument from me there. His power, strength and toughness was the main issue in their war, but his style have him the opportunity to keep alive and throwing. He implemented tactics that Marciano doesn't know how to.
    I have never said otherwise.
    That's not why I've wrote him off, in the slightest. I wrote him off as he's in a horrendous style match up and out-gunned in every way. He doesn't have the defence, or chin, to survive a walking towards Foreman. No-one does.
    I hadn't, thanks for that. My point wasn't that Marciano won't land on Foreman, it was that he wouldn't land that shot. Marciano could obviously hit Foreman, he was hardly a HW Whitaker.
     
  12. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Ali was knocked out by Kent Green in the quarter finals if the Chicago golden gloves. Are you aware of this?
     
  13. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    You believe Ken Norton was technically more proficient than Rocky Marciano? That is bewildering. Can you at least expand on this?

    in general Frazier is considered superior to Marciano? Who decided this? Did everyone decide this? Does the evidence of the Ron Stander and Terry Daniels fights after the hospitalisation and try out against old Cleveland Williams support this??

    no the argument I am putting together is really more of a theory Based on what Marciano was capable of. If that’s bordering on the old cliché "Rocky would find a way" then I am sorry it can only be because I provided reasonable evidence.

    no Rocky won’t be moving foreman back by force but George can give ground to make way for his own looping punches as he did at times against Frazier and Gullick and Chuvalo. Rocky can bounce one off the chin when Forman comes flying forward. Ron Lyle certainly did.

    Ron had traditional, conventional footwork that was certainly more pleasing to the eye. But it was certainly no more effective at closing distance, drawing a guy forwards or providing maximum leverage as Rockys more unconventional, cumbersome moves. Rocky knew what he was doing and it worked better against a better class of fighter than anybody Ron Lyle ever beat. So was it really inferior?

    Marciano won’t have to implement Ron Lyles style to land a right hand like Ron Lyle did. George came in and Ron hit him when George was loading up. It was a regular right hand.

    it is a bad match up for Rocky. He is facing a big man you cannot stand in front of. But it also one that is wide open for right hands. Marcianos best punch. Foreman can push him back and rough him up... but right hands will probably bounce off his chin before he can do this. This gives Rocky some time.. and maybe see him through the first few rounds before Georges strength entirely saps as it always did in his first career.

    so now that you have seen Ted Gullick swatting Foreman with right hands what do you think? This fight was Foremans most recent televised bout before meeting Frazier. No wonder they made Frazier 4-1 because George looked open to right hands, they obviously assumed George could be hit with the left too. It is still to his great credit that Foreman got rid of Frazier so easily ...and possibly in no small part that there was no right hand threat in doing so.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2020
  14. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Boxing Addict Full Member

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    That was also an amateur fight and the only time he had been stopped aside from Dundee throwing in the towel when Ali was an old helpless zombie and too tough for his own good.

    What does this have to do with the fact it's easier to stop an aggressive fighter coming toward you who lacks defense than stopping an elusive guy with good footwork moving away from you? Do you not understand how basic physics works?
     
  15. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft 'Snarky Little Gobshite' - IntentionalButt Full Member

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    Better footwork, better punch structure, better defence, higher ring IQ, better balance

    In fact, I doubt there's a technical aspect that Rocky's better in.
    Typo, I meant to say "I consider" rather than just consider. But since you brought it up, I'm down to debate you on it. I imagine the poll would be pretty close if you made a poll on who was better H2H between Joe and Rocky, and

    You've brought up poor performances from Frazier. Do you think Cockell goes 9 with Frazier? Lastarza goes 11? Charles goes 15? Shot Louis goes 8? I don't. See two can play that game, the difference being is that Rocky's opposition was worse and he looked worse against them.

    This isn't the thread for that, though. You want a debate on that, do it in a different thread.
    What you're doing is specifically looking at what Rocky did in his career to no-one remotely like George Foreman, and ignoring what George Foreman did to people like Rocky.

    It's ridiculous. There's a reason there's only 4 people who've picked Marciano. 1 of which is likely an alt anyway.
    Disagree. Foreman would do exactly what he did to Frazier. He'd shove Rocky off balance before Rocky is in range. He'd also be able to man-handle Rocky of he tries to smother and wack him with the uppercut.
    Yes. My eyes tell me that. Footwork is supposed to be textbook, the reason is because it's what works. Marciano had other aspects that let him close the gap. Basically just volume and fearlessness, his footwork wasn't it.
    I think it shows little bearing. Foreman destroyed him, just like I predict he'd destroy Rocky.