Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Dance84, Mar 9, 2020.
Great post. Very fair.
Well I actually said Ali or Joe Louis were as likely to be kayoed in one round, everyone jumped on Ali being the defensive genius angle but presumably nobody questioned Louis who was the better example.
I simply mentioned Ali because he was another guy who was never knocked out in one round, style didn’t come into it, but since it was brought up, as you know, I have chosen Louis as the better example. I am not trying to get out of anything, I backed that up at the time and included comparisons of first round knock downs. I still think it is unlikely that Marciano, Louis or Ali were ever to be knocked out in one round during their prime. Acknowledging that these still might be popular picks for other people is a separate issue entirely.
The bottom line is Foreman had not fought for over a year and on top of this was coming off a loss that smashed him mentally. He'd lost confidence and was second guessing his style and trying to change not to mention that Lyle was one of the best 5 or 6 heavyweights at a very very strong point in heavyweight history.
Regardless as has already been explained at length in here Lyle is nothing like Marciano. He can fight quite well either going forward or boxing and is 30+ pounds heavier than Rocky, 4 1/2 inches taller and has 8" more reach. Night and day. Sure The Rock is a greater fighter and could likely beat Lyle H2H but Foreman is a nightmare.
I am not sure this stands up. Norton was not more skilled nor was he a similar size to Marciano. Norton was bigger. He did some things differently to Rocky. Had a better jab but was not half the inside fighter of Marciano and nor was he as effective of delivering counterpunches from unusual angles. Ken dragged his back leg behind him so his body weight didn’t always follow through with a punch. Sometimes it did sometimes it didn’t. Although he crossed his arms well defensively it was no more effective than Marciano.
Norton himself said he used the wrong plan against Foreman. He said he lured george in by backing up and forgot to pull the trigger or something like that. Some people say he just froze. Either way George took care of business like an absolute pro. He looked great and nothing was coming back at him.
Ron Lyle was completely different to Rocky too. However, Rocky didn’t have to be anything like Ron to replicate the right hand Foreman ran onto. George was open to right hands and Rocky was not shy about using his. Rocky threw a straight right to knockout Walcott and he threw an overhand right to knockout Layne. He flattened lots of fighters with the right hand.
Interestingly it was often right hands that troubled George. Lyle, Ali and Young all put him down with right hands. Different fighters yes. They all managed to tire George out first to do it. If Rocky can last as long into the fight as 5’9” Scrap Iron Johnson did or Levi Forte or Roberto Davila or Gregorio Peralta (None of whom were fancy boxers) Rocky can land a lot of right hands. And if Marciano can match Johnson, Forte, Davila And Peralta And last later into the fight I see no reason why Rocky can’t bounce enough off the choppers to grab an upset.
I was incorrect in saying Norton and Marciano were similar in size, my bad. Joe Frazier would've been a better example
Speaking of Ken Norton's size though, how tall you think he actually is? Usually he is listed at 6'3 but he definitely isn't taller than Ali...
Anyways, I don't see Rocky standing up to Foreman's punches. Although it is "silly" to suggest a fighter who has never been KO'ed and fought many punchers would be KO'ed, I think he would.
Foreman used very grabs and pushed his opponents around with his gloves, sometimes openhanding them and spinning them right around. Rocky would not be able to overcome this in my mind.
If the fight does go the distance, which is definitely a possibility, I think Foreman would come out with the decision. I see him pawing with his long arms, countering with big shots all night. Would be a good fight.
Norton was 6'3, he just bent down a lot when fighting, which is why he looked shorter than Foreman, Holmes, and Ali.
Norton was a big man, not far away in size from Foreman. He also had a smashing overhand that could have hurt George.
I think Ken (a great fighter btw) was both very afraid of George (from the beginning) and completely pooped himself when he tasted George's power. He panicked out (just like he did with Cooney and Shavers). Notice how it took three of the greatest punchers who ever lived to beat him, lesser punchers like Quarry got their asses kicked, boxers had a horrible time with him.
He was just really intimidated by three of the most powerful boxers in history, and shattered when he got hit by them. Not just his game plan but even his basic style got thrown out with everything else. It's unfortunate, because in many ways he was skillful enough to beat all of them imo.
Its strange people always reference foreman vs frazier but they rarely mention foreman vs Chuvalo for this matchup.
Chuvalo, like Marciano, was a tough guy with a great chin who pressed forward and banged away at the body. He had a good left hook to the head and body and had good power (Chuvalo had knocked out 6 opponents in a row before this fight). He had never been on the canvas in 76 ights and he had legendary stamina to box 15 rounds. And at 6 ft and 214 lbs he was 2 inches taller and almost 30 lbs heavier than Marciano.
None of that mattered. His iron chin and superior stamina were non-factors. Foreman kept him at the end of his ramrod jab swelling up his eyes, out-wrestled and manhandled him, forced him into a corner with a barrage of clubbing shots and stopped him in less than 3 rounds, helpless and unable to mount any sort of offense or plan to eacape.
Obviously Rocky was a class above Chuvalo and had more raw power, but if there's one thing Chuvalo had, it was endurance that could match any boxer past or present and he couldn't last long enough for it to become a factor. So with that being said, I really don't understand the reasoning "if Rocky drags him into deep waters" when we have 2 of the most well conditioned and tough come forward fighters in Frazier and Chuvalo who both got annihilated.
A reasonable pick.
I agree and chuvalo was stronger than Marciano. He was built like a ****ing rock,chuvalo weighed usually 214-217 natural pounds without trained mass with weights
Chuvalo is a good comparison actually. Although not as strong as big George, Foreman found himself giving ground to make room for his punches just like he would Rocky, Chuvalo Did quite well in the first two rounds and landed plenty of lefts to the body but threw very few right hands. The introduction of more right hands and ATG power would have made it a completely different fight. Marciano was much harder to hit.
Chuvalo fought out of a crouch but unlike Rocky he stood up when he got hit. He was a very strong man and foolishly tried riding Foremans shots rather than fire back, crouch low and crowd forward. The ref had no alternative but to stop the fight but Chuvalo himself always disputed the stoppage because he believed Foreman was close to collapse from hitting him. I don’t know about that myself. But on watching the stoppage Chuvalo did seem to set himself to return fire just as Mercante dived in. He had took too many flush blows to have much argument in my opinion..but that’s not how Chuvalo saw it.
The way to beat Foreman would have been to throw more right hands than Chuvalo had. Foreman would come straight onto them.
Chuvalo was very strong but not so much in a boxing specific sense. The guy was a tank and could probably lift more than Rocky but as for directing all that power into footwork and turning it into punches I don’t think so. Rocky had heavy hands like Foreman he was just smaller and technically so very awkward that he moved back and hurt bigger men in a way nobody his own size could. Rocky was more advanced than Chuvalo in every way.
Lol @ Foreman giving ground to Marciano.
I don’t know if you have fought before but giving ground to find space to fire is not the same thing as being pushed back by sheer force. Watch Chuvalo. He’s not physically as strong as Foreman. But he finds the footing first and George has to adjust himself. It’s not backing up. It’s making ground. But if you boxed, forgive me, you know this already.
I know what giving ground is and yes I've boxed. If foreman didn't have room he simply made room by manhandling you lol. Otherwise you got clobbered.
The only times Foreman makes adjustments and creates space in the Chuvalo fight is when he is making sure Chuvalo is at the receiving end of his telephone pole jab and can't fire back. The point of bringing this fight up is to show that a guy whose basically a bigger and tougher (but less skilled) version of Rocky got outgunned and obliterated and his stamina, toughness, and pressure fighting amounted to nothing. It was like watching a running back attempt to push back an offensive lineman. You just can't beat Foreman like that.
Chuvalo didn’t. But then he did not use enough right hands. And, as you agree, he was less advanced as Marciano anyway.