FOTC Ali vs 1986 Mike Tyson

Tyson's mental toughness deteriorated greatly over time, and in the late 1990s it took him to a psychiatrist's office, but in 1986? he lost every round to Buster, and then in the 8th round, being completely exhausted and on the verge of defeat, he dropped Buster for 14 seconds. I think that when he went to Berbick, he was in a much better mental state, with a good corner and aware of his form.

 

They're absolutely not.

Tyson has genuine KO power and speed in both hands - Frazier has an all-time left hook which he could load, shoot and reload time and time again. Joe was by far the busier and more skilled inside fighter. Tyson's inside game was ridiculously underdeveloped, often standing square, able to be pushed backwards or tied up and waiting for the ref to break them up before he reset and went back to his patterns of mid-range engagement.

Dempsey, Frazier, Tyson - stylistically somewhat similar but really not at all the same.

 

I guess an exhausted Ali being beaten from pillar to post impressed you somehow.

 

Here is a quote from Joe about his left eye:
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Frazier laughs when asked how he could have fought anyone, let alone beaten Ali, with only one eye. "S

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He also had an injury to his right arm, which he sustained when he was attacked by a pig as a younger man.
This is thought to have impaired his use of his right throughout his boxing career.

When you're dealing with a top pro, that happens to be bigger than you, and knows how to clinch, slipping is not that easy.
And you're not adressing my point, which was that Ali cheated and should have been deducted points.

Ali was past it, but Frazier was completely shot.

That doesn't matter, Liston was still old, unprepared properly and injured his shoulder. Plus he took a dive the 2nd match.

 

So I was correct in stating we have no third party verification for Frazier being blind in one eye. Clinching in not cheating. It's only a foul if you hold and hit. Liston looked indestructible in his previous fights with Patterson. All boxers bring maladies into the ring. Ali had Parkinson's. Ali had brittle hands that required shots before fights. His admirers don't need excuses ot asterisks because he was a winner. It is what it is.

 

True.

If Ali cheated - then what was Tyson doing when he was hitting when refs were stepping in to separate the fighters, hitting after the bell, hitting when the opponent is technically down and should be given a standing 8, trying to armbar break his opponent's arms, biting a piece of a fighter's ears off?

Clinching is old school - it's a very underused and underskilled side of today's boxing game and it should always have its place in a fighters arsenal. The rules are up to the referee to enforce and every damn good fighter bends the rules.

Ali held and pulled down the head. George framed and hit, pushed shoulders back and hit, Evan Fields used his head liberally, Lennox collar tied people into his uppercuts, Tyson bites, punches after the bell, tries to break arms in the clinch etc etc.

Let the refs do their jobs and unless they're blatantly poking each other in the eyes or throwing rabbit punches, kidney punches, low blows or generally holding and hitting (Duran and Armstrong were masters of tying up an arm and hitting with the other, with Hank even using his head liberally in the chest to manoeuvre his man off balance and position them to where they cannot escape - insane levels of subtle skill) then we would do well to remember that the sweet science is still a war, a Mano e Mano battle of wills, skills, strength, courage, stamina and effective aggression.

 

Two points, many points actually. We have independent verification from Ali's attending physicians that he likely developed Parkinson's mid career. That's from 1970 on. I can provide a citation if anyone wants. That's a hell of a malady to bring into a ring. He had brittle hands that needed to be shot up before fights. Imagine not be able to feel your punches landing. Am I the only poster who sees the irony of the same posters arguing that a fighter's losses in his biggest fights weren't really losses while another fighter's wins in his biggest fights weren't really wins. What is this "Heads I win. Tails you lose" form of argument?

 

don't know what your statement is referring to, but you have to be objective, my friend. Just because Joe Frazier had health issues didn't mean he was a great boxer, and he certainly was in the first fight with Ali, it was an absolutely great performance. The arm and eye injuries did not matter here, and many other boxers also have some shortcomings. I don't think Tyson would have been able to beat Ali like that, but he would have found another way.
As I wrote, Tyson had no major weaknesses in 1986, he was absolutely unique in terms of power, speed, exposure, he was mentally strong, determined and not broken. He was stronger and bigger than Frazier, he was faster than Frazier, he landed combinations and would have done a lot of damage to Ali in the first rounds. I can't say that he would definitely win, but I would bet on a better version of Frazier. Of course, such threads are always dominated by sentiment and a general CV, which is of little importance in the case of specific periods of his career.

 

Yes, but the reason why people raise CV is by 86, who really has Mike fought. Which fighters has he been in the ring with that leave us with a good idea of how he would fare against genuine ATGs.

Mike of 86 - 88 will always be big problems for FOTC Ali, but we hadn't yet seen Mike truly mentally tested in the ring and despite Ali not being ready for what Frazier brought on that night, Frazier's stylistic tendencies and Mike's are not identical.

I propose that the same Mike that reportedly was always liable to out of control behaviour outside of the ring and therefore vulnerable to mental warfare inside the ring isn't seasoned enough in 86 to deal with an Ali who's already dealt with Liston, exile and continued to be defiant in the face of death threats and peers and acquaintances dying horrible deaths saying the same things that Ali was often saying about the plight of America's Black citizen. That kind of living makes for a mental resolve that Mike hadn't faced anything remotely close to and history does show through his career, when faced with true iron resolve and skill, many of Mike's flaws often shone brightly.

 

It's really simple - plain old bias and inconsistent logical reasoning, which I was told decades ago really damage one's credibility.

 

Possibly one of the harder fights for Ali
But I still have him winning.

 

of course, I understand. I just think that the issue of experience is too exaggerated... Ngannou was completely inexperienced in boxing and he gave Fury a terribly difficult fight, Whitearspoon was green in 1983 and almost beat Holmes, Foreman was as green as Tyson in 1986 when he fought Frazier and look how it ended. There are many such examples. Ali is not Berbick, but no one claims that Tyson would dominate him so much every minute. However, I think that Ali took too much and double guard and leaning on the ropes would be a great gift for the speeding Tyson. Ali knew where Frazier's punch would come from, with Tyson he wouldn't have know

 

You weren't correct one bit. This isn't some rumour, but a well known and documented fact. There are countless accounts and people involved in boxing that have atested to this, it's commone knowledge.
Only a clueless person or an Ali fanboy such as yourself would deny it.
https://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/boxi...mpion-smokin-joe-frazier-final-225535179.html
https://www.mensjournal.com/sports/10-things-you-didnt-know-about-joe-frazier
https://www.sportingnews.com/us/box...n-smokin-joe-frazier/4c5a009e5bc0654c8ff737f5

It is when you do it all night long and push down on Frazier's neck. Ali should have been deducted points.

That is completely irrelevant and doesn't change the facts I mentioned.
And Liston was far more motivated for the Patterson fights.

He developed that in the late 70s, he did not have it when he fought Liston or Frazier.

 

You're barking at the wrong tree here. I am 100% confident Tyson will beat Ali and I also believe that Tyson is a superior version of Frazier.
My post was directed at a Ali fanboy.

 

20/70 vision is one eye is not blindness 20/200 is:

20/70 Eye Exam Results | Healthfully

It is when you do it all night long and push down on Frazier's neck. Ali should have been deducted points.


That is completely irrelevant and doesn't change the facts I mentioned.
And Liston was far more motivated for the Patterson fights.


He developed that in the late 70s, he did not have it when he fought Liston or Frazier.[/QUOTE]

20/70 vision is not blindness, 20/200 is.

Your own citation stated he had 20/70 vison in his left eye. 20/200 is blindness.

Ali developed Parkinson's mid career which is 1970. No hearsay but the account of his attending physicians :

In the new viewpoint piece, they write: “Here, we add this missing information to the archives of history. The main point of our report is that Muhammad Ali indeed had young-onset levodopa-responsive Parkinson disease with an emergence during the mid-phase of his boxing
career.”

https://mbi.ufl.edu/2022/10/24/neur...-evidence-for-primary-parkinsons-diagnosis/es

It's immaterial . Ali didn't need excuses or crutches. He just won. The boxer who lost to a journeyman/fringe contender in what should have been his prime and lost two more fights in what should have been close to his prime does.

As to the holding in Ali-Frazier ll here's what the referee had to say:

"Fraziers' people complained that it [Ali's holding behind the head] kept Joe from working on the inside. And it's true; Ali was very strong. He'd pull guys down by the back of the neck and no one was strong enough to pull back. If you let a guy do that all night it wears you down. But I couldn't do anything because it was like Joe was happy laying on Ali's chest, waiting for me to break them apart. That's the way it was the whole fight. Joe would come in, punching, bobbing, weaving. He'd score one or two shots, and then just lay there in the clinch like he was resting. All he had to do was bend at the knees. Get down low so Ali can't hold anymore. He's shorter than Ali, so Ali can't hold him beyond a certain point. And once Joe's free, he'd be in position to come up punching. His own corner kept telling him to do that, but it seemed like he was content to be in a clinch."

Sonny Liston was supposed to be invincible. He was a 7-1 favorite.

Back to the topic at hand. I don't need to make excuses for Ali's losses because he avenged the ones that mattered. Mike Tyson lost to James Douglas in his prime, lost twice to Evander Holyfield in what should have been his post prime, and lost to Lennox Lewis when they were both past prime. That fight should be seen in the same light as Pacquaio-Mayweather. That's four unavenged losses in big fights. Please post your excuses below. Thank you in advance.