Found this little story fascinating

Larry & George were probably just trying to keep the production respectable, avoiding embarrassing situation to be caught on film. If they had confronted Frazier, he may have got belligerent and it would have been broadcast around the world. If that happended, Joe would have once again been defeated.

The saddest part of this whole thing is that Frazier can't let it go, even still, and it was like 35 years ago. Life's too short Joe.

 

Good stories, all of them. I know if Frazier and Ali met alone in an alleyway, Joe would beat Muhammad up. I don't blame Joe for getting mad. Ali caused Frazier and his family more trouble then was needed. Especially after the way Frazier helped Muhammad get back into boxing.

Bummy, your story doesn't surprise me. When Larry kids around, he rarely puts inflection in his voice, he can't help it, it just is that way. A lot of times people can take it the wrong way, and with Joe's temper, it could have gotten ugly.

 

Oates is a gothic writer who has what I'd call an infatuation with boxing. I don't think she has the capability to grasp its essence... that takes a form of intelligence that IQ has nothing to do with. I appreciate her work though, but I think it is rooted in a fascination/repulsion of primal masculinity. Feminists are always deeply offended by the chauvinism and unadulterated masculinity that is and must always be the soul of boxing. I think Oates masks this by psychoanalyzing it from an ivory tower.

As for Ali, I see and acknowledge his great heroism in the ring. But had he pulled that draft stunt in the 40s instead of 60s he would be disdained. He had timing on his side in many ways. America turns its naive head away from his being in bed with the Black Muslim movement and the racist rant that he was a full participant in. Even blacks forget that here was a man who betrayed Malcolm X (another hero of the left). Never mind that it was Malcolm who saw through their fronts and the hypocrisy of Elijah Muhammad long before Ali did.

By the way, his unwillingness "in the name of his religious objections" to step forward in the draft to Vietnam has been proclaimed, celebrated, and masturbated to by every child of the sixties. But nothing is said about his constant adulterous affairs. It wasn't religious objection... it was simply that he didn't want to die. Others, poor men who had no celebrity status to shield them, had to.

I count no heroes among anyone who used any kind of pull to avoid their duty to their country; especially because they knew that someone poorer and less willing to run to Canada (though no less unwilling to die), had to take their place.

 

Well, this is from an unapologetic chauvinist (me) -in the best sense of the word.

The finding was unanimously overturned by the Warren Court. Earl Warren turned this country on it's head in many ways. And there is much to be said about the havoc his Supreme Court wrought in the American social and political fabric.

 

The reality was though compared to Ali; Frazier was an U**** T** and Frazier knew it, hence the resentment...

Ali was no saint, but at least he stuck to his prinicples....

 

The video is on YouTube.

 

1) If it was the 40's, I doubt Ali would have CO'd, totally different war.
2) Like many celebrities, Ronald Reagan for example, Ali could have gotten a nice gig and faced no danger.
3) If Ali's reason was that he didn't want to die then why: Liston, Frazier, Foreman, Shavers, Norton, Lyle........

 

Just out of interest Bill, how close are you to Holmes? I've seen you mention him a lot, but I don't really know what connection there is. Am I right in saying you train at his gym? How often do you speak to him?

 

Ali could be a real piece of ****.

To Patterson, Frazier, Moore...

Really great considering Moore trained him for a while.

Ali didn't like him because Moore ASKED HIM TO USE A BROOM TO CLEAN UP THE ****ING GYM.

 

I met Joe in Plattsburgh New York in 1991 or 1992. He signed one of my boxing books and was pretty funny. I think he was sipping the sauce a little because he was signing autographs left and right and was in a great mood, making everybody laugh with his corny jokes. He seemed nice.

I think the thing about Ali and Frazier is that Ali wounded Joe deeply. Ali turned black America against Joe and called him an Uncle Tom. This was after Joe reached out to Ali in his time of need. I can definately understand Joe's feelings toward Ali.

 

1. Ali didn't want to die. Who does? WWII, Vietnam. The motive to not want to go is the same.

2. No guarantee. Many celebreties did in see combat.

3. Fists aren't bullets.

 

1) ????? How many people CO'd or went to Canada in WW II? How many did the same in Vietnam? I imagine way more did in Vietnam. Then take into account how many more from US were participating in each war and the percentages of CO's would be even more in Vietnam. Different wars generate different levels of patriotism, almost all thought WW II was valid and necassary but many thought the opposite with Vietnam.

2) Please, look @ Joe Louis. You seriously do not think Ali couldn't have worked out a deal?

3) So why are so many regular kids, organized criminals, and gangs shooting each other and putting each other in harms way, because they are brave?

One other point. How many of Ali's opponents of similar age and draftability served in Vietnam? I know Norton was a marine but did he serve or see action in Vietnam? Frazier? Foreman? Holmes? How bout those guys? Any others? and if none of them served, why don't we ever hear about it?

 

I dont have any problem with Ali refusng the draft.
(I dont believe a man has a "duty" to fight whenever the politicians of his land get the whim to go to war.)

Anyway, he was prepared to take the punishment prescribed, and all the hateful publicity it provoked, loss of earnings, unsure future.

Still, I'm not a right-winger by any stretch, but I agree that writers and literary intellectulas of the "American left" have built Ali and his actions into something they were not.

Muhammad Ali was straight orthodox NOI, black seperatist, pro-segregation, Elijah Muhammad disciple.
This wasn't anything like "civil rights movement" nor was it "revolutionary black power". Ali sided against Malcolm X's shift towards more political and rational focus, and stuck with Elijah Muhammad's cultish nonsense.
Ali comes across as rather stupid in many TV interviews where he spouts his NOI views.

I dont know what Joe Frazier did to be labelled "Uncle Tom". I thought that was unfair.

And later on Ali went to using what is primarily anti-black, anti-dark skinned prejudice with his pre-occupation with Frazier's facial features, which culminated in the "Gorilla" slurs.
And somehow Ali - who is noticeably more "vanilla" than Frazier - is seen as a symbol of radical Black pride ??

(Then again, it doesn't escape my notice that Elijah Muhammad and Louis Farrakhan, and others who appear among NOI hierarchy, are all rather "light-skinned")