Found this little story fascinating

You might very well be right, but I understand him nevertheless.

History is written by the winners they say, and in this case Ali has to be seen as nothing less than a winner. Reality was probably far from as uncomplicated as the official history of Ali wants to make it.

 

It was a betrayal. Muhammad betrayed Malcolm and Malcolm was in the right in that whole sordid conflict between he and the dishonorable Elijah Muhammad. Malcolm, the rehabilitated criminal and ex con., assumed the moral highground and exposed the hypocrisy above him.

Anyway, Cassius had a lamentably low IQ and it showed now and then -I also believe that he approached matters emotionally first and rationally second. There have been many young white men in Georgia with names like Earl who were very similar to Muhammad in these ways. They too were and are easily duped by racist groups into some weird racist doctrine rooted in bad history, racial pride, and emotion.

Muhammad was however, in possession of great instincts and superb athletic intelligence. I think that he has since realized the error of his ways.

 

... college kids ....and celebrities.

 

As far as I know he has expressed regret for his behaviour towards Malcolm X, his words against Frazier and for his womanizing. If he hadn't recognised any of the mistakes he's made my opinion of him would be lower. Being that young and in the center of all that attention you're bound to f*ck up at least to some extent, I guess.

 

Really? We gotta choose? I see what's beautiful in both as boxers, and I think I perceive what I like about each as men. The only probelm with this is of course I'm probably just as wrong as right in that department. How can we expect to know what they really are as men? Not just based on how "we" judge their actions. The myth of the "man" will rarely match the legend, and it's been my experience that when it does, it's a fluke. It's almost a cliche in show business and the fight game, and anywhere where heroes are made of mere mortals: how many times have I heard that so and so rising star was afraid to meet so and so living legend in his field for fear of crushing disappointment? It's the rare living legend that lives up to what they're expected to be.

By the way, who'd want that burden to bare? That every time you walk out the door there's a pressure to be what someone else thinks you should be? **** that! I've seen it in family and friends and it's nothin' but a pain in the ass. My father was good at it! He liked it, he was a natural with people. He had a basic trust and fondness for people that was in his upbringing and in his genes. But others I've been around hated it. Billy Conn is the first guy that comes to mind. Billy was cocky, but cool if liked you. Arrogant, until he saw you weren't an, "*******," Billy's favorite word. Billy, as the saying goes did not suffer fools gladly, or easily, or barely at all. He opted out of most the affairs around Pittsburgh, so as not to deal with the steady flood of expectations others had of him, of what they wanted him to be.

These guys, fighters included, bust their asses to get somehwere, to dig themselves out of whatever trench they were born into, work day after day and year after year to "be" someone, and then what happens? The media, the fans, the people they pass on the street or sit a table over from in an expensive French restaurant, not only feel they have a right to interrupt these guys regardless of the circumstances, but also to demand they live up to the preconceptions he personally has: His rules! What a crock of ****!

We can judge them if we wish on their actions outside of the ring, Ali's flat refusal to go to Vietnam, Billy Conn's handling of the pushy fan in an abrupt to insulting way, Frank Sinatra (legendary for this kind of behavior) punching out of newspapermen for writing hurtful pieces about his personal life. But more often than not you are going to be wrong: Ali had the highest motives to Ali was saving his own ass; who the hell knows? I see it the way that makes sense to me, you see it in a way that most makes sense to you and we're both wrong; the truth always lies somewhere in between. It's the human tendency to oversimplify when lacking of empirical information that is the culprit; something deep in our DNA that's developed over a million years as a result of our need to grasp complex situations in a hurry.

Anybody ever think we're hard on these guys? It's only their talent that makes them special. After that, they're just like you and me, just as much a chance of being a sinner or a saint and always of course, like all of us, they are a little of both.

 

Depends. Right now probably Frazier because I just watched one of his fight.

 

Tongue in cheek I take it?

 

I don't really understand how Muhammad Ali betrayed Malcolm X. In Malcolm X's own autobiography he doesn't even imply anything of the sort. Ali may have been cowardly towards him, but the fact was they were friends primarily because they were both in the Nation of Islam and after Malcolm X was expelled Ali didn't treat him the same. This would be something that ANY member of the nation would do. Malcolm X himself completely stopped talking to his own isolated brother for the rest of his life after his brother had been expelled from the nation. I feel that how Muhammad Ali treated Malcolm X after his expulsion was cowardly but not a betrayal.

 

I don't understand this much. You're saying that the authenticity of one's black experience is based on how poor they are and not just the fact that they are black? W.E.B Dubois must have had no right to write The Soul of Black Folk then considering he was a Harvard graduate.

 

Good post.

 

The Ali-Frazier feud always makes good debate. My thoughts. I became an Ali fan when I was a kid in the sixties,and followed him through the highs and lows of his career till it was finished. I also had a great respect for Joe Frazier. I have a well rounded view of things,imo. As much of a Muhammad Ali fan as I was,and still am,I never thought he was a saint. He was a bit of a bad boy at times,and he did go over the top with Frazier at times,and I can understand Joe being pissed off at the time !!! Having said that,I do n't look upon Frazier as being the poor little victim boy as some people portray him. In recent years the positions have almost been reversed,as Muhammad has displayed quiet dignity when he could have reacted to Joe's more tasteless comments about his illness. Joe has been guilty of double standards. During Ali's 1978 This Is your life he came on there and said "Ladies and gentlemen,we all love him" This all happened a long time ago. Joe should make peace.

 

Patterson and Terrell did write some very ugly words about Ali and his religion prior to their fights but Ali seemingly got along with Floyd after the fight.

The relationship between Ali and Frazier seems to be far more complex than just Frazier hating Ali's guts. I'm not sure if Frazier himself truly knows what he thinks of Ali, perhaps it depends on the mood of the day...

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_-GC0f9DqI[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8hVIHJffyU[/ame]