"Four Kings" by George Kimball

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Briscoe, Jan 9, 2010.


Page 3 of 3
  1. redrooster

    redrooster Boxing Junkie Full Member

    13,635
    332
    Jan 29, 2005
    such as?
     
    redrooster, Jan 10, 2010
    redrooster, Jan 10, 2010
    #31
  2. Stonehands89

    Stonehands89 Boxing Junkie Full Member

    10,775
    312
    Dec 12, 2005
    ...I hope that you'll excuse my teeth-baring.

    I agree with what you state here and have considered where Duran would place had he stood up in New Orleans and perhaps got in shape against Hearns. He would rank even higher than where I have him now.

    Then again, as you imply, he wouldn't have been Duran. No Hagler-like workman was he. Duran lived and fought with passion barely tempered by the wisdom of Brown and Arcel... but he has good company... Monzon and Walker among them.
     
    Stonehands89, Jan 10, 2010
    Stonehands89, Jan 10, 2010
    #32
  3. JudgeDredd

    JudgeDredd Well-Known Member Full Member

    2,949
    33
    Sep 14, 2009
    I think going from being one of, if not the greatest Lightweights in history, then moving up to WW & beating Palomino & Leonard, is comparable to anything Pacquiao's doing now. Anything after that is merely window dressing IMO. Yes he came to New Orleans in terrible shape & embarrassed himself, yes he had some awful performances after this, but he was past his prime by now & sorely lacking motivation. Then every now & again he'd get excited about a fight & put on a show, i.e Moore, Hagler & Barkley. But if he'd retired after the first Leonard fight I'd still have him in my top 3 off all time P4P.
     
    JudgeDredd, Jan 10, 2010
    JudgeDredd, Jan 10, 2010
    #33
  4. GazOC

    GazOC Guest Star for Team Taff Full Member

    61,460
    38
    Jan 7, 2005
    No offernce but I'm not really in the mood for a Leonard discussion with you, they are pointless at the best of times but off the top of my head (and its been a while since I read the book) it claims that Hagler was all set to retire and live happily ever after when the evil Sugar Ray Leonard tempted him with a fight when in reality Hagler was all set to continue is career with a Tommy Hearns rematch before Leonard started dropping his comeback hints.

    Little distortions like that spoil the integrity of the book as its obvious that its written, to one degree or another, with an agenda in mind.

    Of course you'll say that Hagler was going to finish with boxing and Leonard effectively beat a mentally retired fighter because it suits your agenda on Leonnard but that just wasn't the case.
     
    GazOC, Jan 10, 2010
    GazOC, Jan 10, 2010
    #34
  5. Briscoe

    Briscoe Active Member Full Member

    941
    6
    Sep 19, 2009
    No problem, I expect a lot of this until I establish myself (or something like that).

    To me, I'll always be amazed with Duran. He's one of those rare personalities in boxing history.

    It's just when I see an athlete who shows me that he's really got something. Something that could blow away the rest of the pack, I'd like to see that person achieve that peak.

    However, we're speaking Duran here and what he did won't be replicated anytime soon.
     
    Briscoe, Jan 10, 2010
    Briscoe, Jan 10, 2010
    #35
  6. Briscoe

    Briscoe Active Member Full Member

    941
    6
    Sep 19, 2009
    Leonard wasn't evil, the book never said that. It just painted Leonard as a man who knew when to take his chance. See that either way you'd like. I see it as a little underhanded, but he did what he could without it being considered cheating. Nothing wrong with that. It happens all the time.

    I'm not Rooster here, but Kimball painted a fair picture. Leonard did take advantage of situations, much like Mayweather is doing now. Good thing for Leonard, he's America's sweetheart. Mayweather just looks like a spoiled punk (now a spoiled whiny punk who's father should shut his mouth). It's silly to dismiss that Leonard wasn't a schemer. He was. I'll stand by that. However, I'll never say it was "evil". He did what he could with in reason.

    In life certain people will do what they can and grab any advantage. Leonard knew Duran wasn't in great shape after their first fight, and he jumped on the chance to do so. Leonard knew that Hagler was slipping and he was ripe for the taking, and he did just that and won the fight in the eyes of the judges. However, you can't just make these moves with little talent. Leonard had boatloads of it (talent), and he coupled it with some well grounded street smarts.

    I think some people just have to stop taking offense to the way certain things are painted. If you weren't there, you might as well take a backseat and enjoy the ride. With those four legends, you can't go wrong.
     
    Briscoe, Jan 10, 2010
    Briscoe, Jan 10, 2010
    #36
  7. Stonehands89

    Stonehands89 Boxing Junkie Full Member

    10,775
    312
    Dec 12, 2005
    Well, you seem to know whereof you speak already. Most of the posters here are high quality and aside from some jabs thrown now and then it's pretty respectful. At times, we'll get refugees from the lounge but they often either get chased out of here or get their feelings hurt. It's quality control.
     
    Stonehands89, Jan 10, 2010
    Stonehands89, Jan 10, 2010
    #37
  8. GazOC

    GazOC Guest Star for Team Taff Full Member

    61,460
    38
    Jan 7, 2005
    I'm well aware of the situation behind Leonard deciding that Hagler was ripe for the taking after the Mugabi fight but my two posts giving opinions on this book (Sorcery at Caesars, not Kimballs book) have merely said it bends the truth on occassion and seems to be written with an agenda and I've given an example of why I believe this to be the case.

    I'm certainly not going to defend Leonards sense of timing as he knew exactly what he was doing on that front but the truth of that doesn't need embelishing with fiction like Hagler was going to retire. It just leaves the rest of the book and motives behind it open to question.

    I'm not taking offence at "Sorcery..." or putting it down, I'm just giving my opinion on it as someone who followed boxing pretty closely around that time.

    (The "evil Leonard" comment was just a sarky tip of my hat to RedRooster rather than a serious issue with the book)
     
    GazOC, Jan 10, 2010
    GazOC, Jan 10, 2010
    #38
Page 3 of 3