four things that Hopkins vs Calzaghe showed us

David UK · Apr 21, 2008

BigBone said:

1. For ESB sake, I'd like to argue with some points to make some things clear. 4 years ago Calzaghe was 4 years younger as well and a SMW, Hopkins a MW, so Hopkins would've jumped up in weight like Calzaghe did on Sat! Hopkins was very strong and big Saturday since he's bulinding his LHW for... 2 years now.

I also think Hopkins did really well vs. Joe, so he wasn't that better 4 years ago when he was a MW. Also, Joe's stamina, power and punch output seems to be a little bit better at SMW so a 4 years younger Joe at SMW is a lot better than a 36 years-old Joe at LHW. Why? Because he never ever built a LHW body and it seemed he wasn't as crisp as at SMW.

2. Dan Rafael considered putting Joe as P4P#1 before the fight which of course only happen now (since he scored the fight for Hopkins 114-113) if Floyd's falls out (in a couple of months since he's inactive). Still, Joe1s P4P#2 now whether you overrate or underrate him.

3. Joe's GREAT vs. predictable, one (1,5) dimensional fighters no matter how quick (Kessler), strong (Lacy) or crafty (Mitchell) they are. Everyone said Joe will have troubles with Hopkins since you can't adjust to his style - he's the one who makes you fight his style! In the end, Joe did fine and adjusted to Hopkins' style not getting hit by Bernard's nice counter rights anymore. Pavlik is Lacy with a jab with quicker hands but no defense (before you jump on me: Lacy was a decent fighter, just Joe was levels ahead in skills). Joe will own Pavlik. Bute is getting better and better and he's the dangerous one at SMW, however Joe is just levels ahead in skill. In fact, Kessler as well. Taylor can be abused at the ropes and frustrated with the jab. Calzaghe's jab is a quick, solid one and a 4-5 punch combination following it. Still, Taylor's chances better than Pavlik's since his defense is better and his style is more improvisational. Calzaghe-Taylor is a great fight.

4. Kessler is still regarded as The Man at SMW according to all US/UK etc. magazines. He'd lose to Hopkins but that does not make him overrated since he'd beat everyone else from MW to LHW.

Styles make fights. I see people sitting on their sofa looking at a glass of water in disbelief after Calzaghe destroys Pavlik: 'How can that be? How can a 43 year-old guy do more than a 15 years younger? Is Kelly overrated?' No... Hopkins is just the worst style Joe can fight against so he might've lost 6 years ago, who knows. But Pavlik has the perfect style for him.
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100% agree. This is the most intelligent post I have seen on this matter.

sean · Apr 21, 2008

hudson if he was a betting man would lose a lot of money betting against calzaghe all the time.

lacy to knock calzaghe the **** out.

hopkins to beat calzaghe on points.

even said would not surprise him if manfredo landed a bomb and won.

kessler i cannot remember but seeing it was a fight between 2 white europeans he most probably picked the black guy to win.

WhataRock · Apr 21, 2008

Cobbler said:

When people post things like Lacy was by a wide margin one of the two best fighters Calzaghe has fought it makes me discount the rest of their arguments.
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Give me a fighter on Joe's record prior to when he fought Lacy who was as good as a 2005 Jeff Lacy (when Joe fought them).

Reid maybe but I dont think so and I think Joe was young, and still learning in that fight. Woodhall, past it. Eubank, past it.

Maybe I was wrong to group him in there with Kessler but obviously Jeff is a good fighter,and a highlight of Joe's career.

Fact is when Joe was in his "prime" he was fighting trash. The circumstances behind that are irrelevant because the purpose of my previous post was to find out how people gauge Joe's prime as before Lacy and Kessler when he was mostly fighting guys who were several levels below him.

ashley · Apr 21, 2008

The kess VS Joe fight was loads better that BHOP VS Joe.

Much more open, better shots and exchanges, not as much clinches but 1 thing is still the same....Joe should get credit where credit is due...he mixed it in close with these two big punches and took the big shots and fought back.

Both fights he won by 3 or 4 points and he needs to be in the top 3 P4P best and will be in the hall of fame.

1lehudson · Apr 21, 2008

sean said:

hudson if he was a betting man would lose a lot of money betting against calzaghe all the time.

lacy to knock calzaghe the **** out.

hopkins to beat calzaghe on points.

even said would not surprise him if manfredo landed a bomb and won.

kessler i cannot remember but seeing it was a fight between 2 white europeans he most probably picked the black guy to win.
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I did say the first one, about Lacy.

What I actaully said about Hopkins is that my head is telling me that Joe will outwork Hopkins and win a dec, however every time that I have picked against Hopkins he wins big. So I picked Hopkins.

The third one you just made up. Manfredo was/is a fringe contender and I never thought much more of him then that.

I picked Joe to beat Kessler, never even gave it a second thought.

As far as me picking the Black guy........Well someone once said you should always bet on black:good :hey

PS I dont recall you picking against many Euro guys(white ones, that it)

maciek4 · Apr 21, 2008

1lehudson said:

I did say the first one, about Lacy.

What I actaully said about Hopkins is that my head is telling me that Joe will outwork Hopkins and win a dec, however every time that I have picked against Hopkins he wins big. So I picked Hopkins.

The third one you just made up. Manfredo was/is a fringe contender and I never thought much more of him then that.

I picked Joe to beat Kessler, never even gave it a second thought.

As far as me picking the Black guy........Well someone once said you should always bet on black:good :hey

PS I dont recall you picking against many Euro guys(white ones, that it)
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if you bet on black guys against calzaghe or pavlik then you a broke ..... :good

1lehudson · Apr 21, 2008

maciek4 said:

if you bet on black guys against calzaghe or pavlik then you a broke ..... :good
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Nah, I would be on Pavlik he likes rap music

No, all joking aside. I dont really think that Joe should be fighting those guys, In truth its too much of a risk to him. I would like to see Joe fight Jones, and Johnson. Guys from his era, and fights that should have happened years ago. Reason for that is I really dont think that Joe could beat many of the young guns coming up. He isnt going to outwork the likes of Pavlik, Taylor, Bute and Dawson. He isnt going to take the shots from Pavlik and Dawson that he took from Hopkins. Note that Hopkins was never seen as a big puncher, as someone stated.

I think that Joe is on the other side of the hill now, and its really not fair to ask him to fight those guys. I dont think.

Benjiabc · Apr 21, 2008

1lehudson said:

1. Joe would have lost to Hopkins badly three or four years ago

2. Joe is better then most Americans thought, and not as good as most Europeans thoughts.

3. Joe would have his hands full with the likes of Pavlik, Taylor, Bute.

4. Kessler is over rated:good
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the second point is the only one you really have an arguement for to be honest. to say joe would struggle with taylor and bute is laughable, i would pick him over pavlik too

K2ray · Apr 21, 2008

BigBone said:

1. For ESB sake, I'd like to argue with some points to make some things clear. 4 years ago Calzaghe was 4 years younger as well and a SMW, Hopkins a MW, so Hopkins would've jumped up in weight like Calzaghe did on Sat! Hopkins was very strong and big Saturday since he's bulinding his LHW for... 2 years now.

I also think Hopkins did really well vs. Joe, so he wasn't that better 4 years ago when he was a MW. Also, Joe's stamina, power and punch output seems to be a little bit better at SMW so a 4 years younger Joe at SMW is a lot better than a 36 years-old Joe at LHW. Why? Because he never ever built a LHW body and it seemed he wasn't as crisp as at SMW.

2. Dan Rafael considered putting Joe as P4P#1 before the fight which of course only happen now (since he scored the fight for Hopkins 114-113) if Floyd's falls out (in a couple of months since he's inactive). Still, Joe1s P4P#2 now whether you overrate or underrate him.

3. Joe's GREAT vs. predictable, one (1,5) dimensional fighters no matter how quick (Kessler), strong (Lacy) or crafty (Mitchell) they are. Everyone said Joe will have troubles with Hopkins since you can't adjust to his style - he's the one who makes you fight his style! In the end, Joe did fine and adjusted to Hopkins' style not getting hit by Bernard's nice counter rights anymore. Pavlik is Lacy with a jab with quicker hands but no defense (before you jump on me: Lacy was a decent fighter, just Joe was levels ahead in skills). Joe will own Pavlik. Bute is getting better and better and he's the dangerous one at SMW, however Joe is just levels ahead in skill. In fact, Kessler as well. Taylor can be abused at the ropes and frustrated with the jab. Calzaghe's jab is a quick, solid one and a 4-5 punch combination following it. Still, Taylor's chances better than Pavlik's since his defense is better and his style is more improvisational. Calzaghe-Taylor is a great fight.

4. Kessler is still regarded as The Man at SMW according to all US/UK etc. magazines. He'd lose to Hopkins but that does not make him overrated since he'd beat everyone else from MW to LHW.

Styles make fights. I see people sitting on their sofa looking at a glass of water in disbelief after Calzaghe destroys Pavlik: 'How can that be? How can a 43 year-old guy do more than a 15 years younger? Is Kelly overrated?' No... Hopkins is just the worst style Joe can fight against so he might've lost 6 years ago, who knows. But Pavlik has the perfect style for him.
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I think a Miranda beats him if the fight is Stateside...

ron u.k. · Apr 21, 2008

has anyone ever looked good against hopkins?

joito3 · Apr 21, 2008

I think Calzaghe will out point Taylor rather easily....

Pavlik however will be a TOUGH fight...he's huge and doesn't stop throwing punches lol it would be an awesome fight as Joe doesn't stop throwing either...

Difference is that Pavlik will be landing HARD shots while Joe is throwing baby flurries

Pavlik by TKO late

Beeston Brawler · Apr 21, 2008

I think Kessler is slightly over-rated, but is still a very good fighter, and would own the likes of Bute, Taylor and Miranda with ease.

To even suggest these guys give Joe any trouble is ridiculous!

sean · Apr 21, 2008

1lehudson said:

I did say the first one, about Lacy.

What I actaully said about Hopkins is that my head is telling me that Joe will outwork Hopkins and win a dec, however every time that I have picked against Hopkins he wins big. So I picked Hopkins.

The third one you just made up. Manfredo was/is a fringe contender and I never thought much more of him then that.

I picked Joe to beat Kessler, never even gave it a second thought.

As far as me picking the Black guy........Well someone once said you should always bet on black:good :hey

PS I dont recall you picking against many Euro guys(white ones, that it)
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i picked mayweather to easily beat hatton.
i picked calzaghe to beat hopkins in a scrappy foul filled affair closely on points.
last american v european i got wrong was i picked huck to beat cunningham , but i did not get to watch the cunningham dvd of previous fights
until the day of the fight and i posted a retraction saying cunningham was a lot better than i thought a few hours before the fight took place.

still got my pick wrong though as we all do time to time.

black or white though makes no difference to me, as a white irishboy i went to a 90% west indian school in londons east end and played for football teams where i was the only whiteman.

pro european i am though.

but no worries , i enjoy our debates over the last nearly 10 years as we are both rational posters , just come at it from different points of view .

Marquito_666 · Apr 21, 2008

BigBone said:

1. For ESB sake, I'd like to argue with some points to make some things clear. 4 years ago Calzaghe was 4 years younger as well and a SMW, Hopkins a MW, so Hopkins would've jumped up in weight like Calzaghe did on Sat! Hopkins was very strong and big Saturday since he's bulinding his LHW for... 2 years now.

I also think Hopkins did really well vs. Joe, so he wasn't that better 4 years ago when he was a MW. Also, Joe's stamina, power and punch output seems to be a little bit better at SMW so a 4 years younger Joe at SMW is a lot better than a 36 years-old Joe at LHW. Why? Because he never ever built a LHW body and it seemed he wasn't as crisp as at SMW.

2. Dan Rafael considered putting Joe as P4P#1 before the fight which of course only happen now (since he scored the fight for Hopkins 114-113) if Floyd's falls out (in a couple of months since he's inactive). Still, Joe1s P4P#2 now whether you overrate or underrate him.

3. Joe's GREAT vs. predictable, one (1,5) dimensional fighters no matter how quick (Kessler), strong (Lacy) or crafty (Mitchell) they are. Everyone said Joe will have troubles with Hopkins since you can't adjust to his style - he's the one who makes you fight his style! In the end, Joe did fine and adjusted to Hopkins' style not getting hit by Bernard's nice counter rights anymore. Pavlik is Lacy with a jab with quicker hands but no defense (before you jump on me: Lacy was a decent fighter, just Joe was levels ahead in skills). Joe will own Pavlik. Bute is getting better and better and he's the dangerous one at SMW, however Joe is just levels ahead in skill. In fact, Kessler as well. Taylor can be abused at the ropes and frustrated with the jab. Calzaghe's jab is a quick, solid one and a 4-5 punch combination following it. Still, Taylor's chances better than Pavlik's since his defense is better and his style is more improvisational. Calzaghe-Taylor is a great fight.

4. Kessler is still regarded as The Man at SMW according to all US/UK etc. magazines. He'd lose to Hopkins but that does not make him overrated since he'd beat everyone else from MW to LHW.

Styles make fights. I see people sitting on their sofa looking at a glass of water in disbelief after Calzaghe destroys Pavlik: 'How can that be? How can a 43 year-old guy do more than a 15 years younger? Is Kelly overrated?' No... Hopkins is just the worst style Joe can fight against so he might've lost 6 years ago, who knows. But Pavlik has the perfect style for him.
Click to expand...

Very good post !
:good

K2ray · Apr 21, 2008

Blocky said:

The major thing this fight showed me is that age doesn't stop a ring general in great shape from doing what he does. Hopkins was on top form and for parts of the fight, was successful in making Calzaghe look bad.

Calzaghe found the way to winning, adapted and turned the tables on Hopkins - it wasn't gassing out in my view, it was Joe keeping away from the right and forcing himself on Hopkins in the clinching that gave him the win
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atschhow many Hopkin fights have you watched circa 1999?

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