Frank Bruno vs Evander Holyfield

All that is true of many early opponents (and for every successful fighter for that matter Bruno was not an exclusive case Tyson fought the same types) but many who continued fighting recorded fair results after. Ferguson took Holmes to a SD in his next fight. Tyson couldn't do anything much to Jameson and he was more out of shape for him. I remember Larry Alexander was sent home with a "failed brain scan" but continued his career with some form. That was a pull out. Evangelista pulled out. I think Mercer pulled out too. Snipes was mentioned. Page just would not come. There was a lot of debate at the time but the truth was decent journeymen would take a lower price to take on any other prospect but would price themselves out for Bruno.

and yet to this day Witherspoon says it was his best win! Why would he say that? He also said Bruno was better than he expected.

Coetzee weighed as heavy in other fights. Who knows if he would have been frozen out. He looked good in his previous fight and that maintained his rating.

That KO marked the end of Williams but he was as decent in that fight as he was for Witherspoon and if WItherspoon was no better how come Witherspoon was able to relaunch himself against Cole, Gonzales and Mercer? Witherspoon always had titties. They were a trademark of most 1980s heavyweights. Against Bruno Williams was competative and trying to win.

but everyone else fought exactly the same guys, in the same shape. It was the same for all prospects. Ribalta was always tough yet Bruno iced him.

Tyson and Lewis were all time great fighters at their best. There are a handfull of champions from history who could have been as competative against them as Bruno was.

everyone hit Holyfeild. Everyone had their sucsess with him and so would Bruno. I can't rule out a late stoppage loss but Frank would do very well and could last the distance.

 

Witherspoon is respected in the UK, famous among British boxing fans. It was his greatest win from a career perspective. It was a huge event, and he came here and beat the local hero in front of 60,000 people.

He was better against Larry Holmes, and in other fights too. In much better condition, and fighting smarter. It's easy to see that.

As Mongoose pointed out, he was badly hurt/hospitalized against Tillis in his previous fight.
Don King had the heavyweight titles wrapped up and had no plans to allow Coetzee in. King had already proclaimed himself to be boycotting the South Africans, cynically probably.
But all of this is irrelevant.
Whatever way you spin it, Coetzee was fat and had come for the payday. He turned up in London with his wife, in holiday mood.

I cannot fault Bruno's performance at all, but Coetzee was not one of the elite top-flight fighters at that point, he was on his way down.

Witherspoon DID relaunch himself in 1996, giving it one last serious go.
His form was up and down, due to motivation, and the business/legal stuff grinding him down.
Witherspoon lost to Everett Martin in 1992. Was Martin better than '96 opponents, as good as '96 Mercer? NO.
Witherspoon was up and down.
He was also 12 pounds heavier against Williams than he was 5 years later against Gonzalez.

It's no secret that Witherspoon squandered much of his career.

Witherspoon was in good shape sometimes, in his best shape he was 217 - 222 pounds. Against Bruno he was 234.

Jesse Ferguson was 244 against Bruno. Less than a year earlier he had a title shot against Bowe and came in at 224. He fought Tyson at 212.

Tillis was brought in at late notice against Bruno, and was also stopped by Mike Williams and Johnny DuPlooy that same year.

Ribalta, Tillis, Ferguson et al. ..... YES, Bruno beat guys like that up. Sometimes very impressively, but that doesn't matter when we're talking about matching him with TOP-FLIGHT fighters.
Like prime Holyfield.

In boxing, you either win or you lose, controversial decisions notwithstanding.
"Doing very well" and ultimately losing by bad beating, battered against the ropes, out on your feet, means nothing more than losing, but, yes, Frank Bruno made a lot of friends that way.

Yes, if he fought Holyfield, I'm sure some people would be saying "well done Frank" and glorifying his losing effort where for a brief moment or two he had Holyfield going back.

 

The pity was that Frank fought better versions of Tyson and Lewis than Evander fought. How would Holyfeild get on against a faster and younger Lewis? How about Witherspoon? I think even the 1996 version of Witherspoon could have been a nightmare for Holyfeild, yet Bruno fought the ten year younger version. Remember, even Michael Moorer schooled a Prime Holyfeild.

Bert Cooper was short notice and he nearly stopped Holyfeild, he was not even a noted elite dangerman. By comparison, Bonecrusher knocked out Weaver and Witherspoon in one round. These men who beat Bruno were all capable of greatness. and they had to be at their best for Bruno. I don't think Holyfeild would have got past all of them.

I think Holyfeild was a better match for Bruno than the versions of Lewis and Tyson that Frank fought. Until you can say Holyfeild would have got past the versions of champions that Bruno fought Holyfeild v Bruno is a 50-50 match on paper. Holyfeild likely wins of course but it could be the fight of Evanders life.

 

Holyfield for me.

 

Holyfield in 99 was far more spent, than Lewis, it's obvious. How would much younger, fresher and faster Holyfield do vs 93' version of Lewis, that's a question.

 

Making like Bruno's win over Coetzee was a big deal is the equivalent of looking back in retrospect and hyping Liakhovik as a big win for Wilder. "Look Wilder beat the guy who beat the guy who beat Wlad!"

As hardcore fans, we are supposed to be smarter than this. It's not a "dive" just "selective match making", but its obvoius you have one guy the rise who's showing up to kill and another guy the decline showing up to have his name on the poster.

These fights are designed to be blow outs to give your power puncher a decent name on his resume for promotional purposes or a name he can point to get leverage for a title shot. We've seen this many many times before and should simply know better, especially in retrospect.

 

-Must disagree. Pre-Steward Lewis fought a very dumb and lazy fight against Bruno. And Holyfield beat a version of Tyson who took Bruno apart. Tyson was actually a little better in the 96 fight, I think at least, as he showe dmore movement and had an improved right cross.

-What's with this chubby Spoon overrating? Evander beat better guys than that.

-Cooper certainly did not "nearly stop Evander". He caught him with a good punch, and Holyfield used the rope to stay on his feet. He was rocked, but recovered just fine.

-50/50 on paper? :huh

 

Liakhovic was not #1 WBA contender when he fought Wilder. Liakhovich had only won 2 of 7 fights before wilder and had not been a force (if ever) since 2006 some 7 years earlier!!!!!

There is no comparison in any shape or form with wilders win over liakhovich and Frank Brunos one round KO win over a #1 WBA contender.

 

And Coetezee shattered his hand against Dokes and took over a year off, was knocked out by Page in his return, and hospitialized against Tillis. He showed up against Bruno, fat, broken down, and ready to retire. Credit to Bruno for taking care of business but it should obvious to anyone with an understanding of the sport this fight was not meant to test Bruno but make him look good and get him a title shot. Same difference, doesn't matter if he was rated by an alpha organization or not. In both instances Coetzee and Liakhovik were there to be beat, empty vessles with a name to put over a rising slugger.


Only up to a point. For a start, it must be said that Coetzee, once an aggressive fighter with a potent right hand, looked like a fat man on vacation when he went to London to meet Bruno. He announced his retirement on the morning after his defeat but might have been truer to the realities of his physical condition if he had done so a couple of months earlier. The punches with which Bruno battered Coetzee were well delivered and thunderously destructive, but by the time the South African's grossly bloated body lay draped across the bottom rope at Wembley Arena, his lolling head supported by ringside photographers, it was impossible to escape the thought that the local hero had burgled an empty house.

[url]http://cnnsi.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1065045/index.htm[/url]


I'm not sure what Coetzee was rated but it wasn't #1 by WBA, that was Tubbs. Who remained #1 even after losing to Spoon. Apparently the WBA allowed Bruno to fight Spoon anyway becuase it would sell good.

[url]http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:skF0q4CYIy0J:articles.sun-sentinel.com/1986-07-08/sports/8602100364_1_post-fight-bout-wba-heavyweight-champion+&cd=10&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us[/url]

``Maybe Bruno paid Tubbs to step aside,`` was how WBA Vice President Jimmy Resnick justified the upcoming London bout. ``By (Witherspoon`s) violating the rules, we decided Tubbs should remain the No. 1 contender.
``Maybe Bruno asked Tubbs to step aside.``
Swell guy, that Tubbs, giving up his rematch so Frank Bruno would have a chance at a world heavyweight title -- when all Tubbs had to do was assert his right to the Witherspoon bout.
``There are many reasons a No. 1 contender can be passed over for a title fight,`` Resnick said. ``One is that they are paid off. It`s a very normal thing. Some (boxers) have made a fortune that way.``

``It makes more sense to do what`s fair and square, but it doesn`t make sense financially,`` Nigel Collins, editor of The Ring, said Monday. ``The Bruno fight could generate maybe the largest gate (in English boxing). They would have a hard time selling Witherspoon and Tubbs at all.``
With Tubbs still the top-ranked contender, the WBA has already mandated that he will fight the winner of the Witherspoon-Bruno bout. Carl King said Witherspoon has already been signed for that bout should he win on the 19th.

 

I love Bruno, cried when he won the belt, but he was never really n elite fighter and as much as it pains me to say it Hollyfield would have murdered him.

Frank was a lovely bloke, had a good connection with the british public, had one of the best bodies in HW division but he was so robotic and ring IQ was zero

Still gotta love Bruno, that night he won the title was special

 

Lewis was better in 1999 than in 1993.

Witherspoon in 1986 against Bruno was fat and under-trained. I've already addressed Tim's 'up and down' career. In 1996 he was old but in fairly decent shape.

No, Moorer didn't school Holyfield. The decision was close, controversial. And Holyfield wasn't prime.

This is just stupid.
Who the f--- did Frank Bruno ever beat to give him a chance against Holyfield ?

 

That is easy to say now because Coetzee lost. Gerrie was not broken down or as old and fat as George Foreman was when he beat Micheal Moorer. It is the heavyweight division anything can happen. Bruno got going first and won. That is not to say Coetzee could not have been a handfull for any other contender that night. Gerrie was only 30 years old and had only lost to world champions if you exclude the snipes robbery. Coetzee could have been a potential banana skin.

I accept what you are saying, the odds are always stacked against the away fighter. One guy represents the future, the bigger investment and the other guy represents the past. I get it. There is always the advantage of career timing but the difference here is the older man was rated higher. He was proven and still capable. Still a relevent player on the World scene who had only lost to elite fighters. There was a **** load more risk in taking on Coetzee than Wilder taking on liakhovich who was on a losing streak and had not been relevant for 7 years!

 

-It was observed before the fight he was fat and looking like a guy on vacation. He had a well documented breakage and surgery on his hand that rendered his money punch useless. This has already been pointed out.

-This paragraph is just bizarre.

-I don't believe he was. Can you actually find his and Bruno's ranking going into the fight. I would not be surprised if Bruno was rated higher, you already incorrectly stated Coetzee was rated #1 and that certainly wasn't the case. Tubbs was #1 and apparently Bruno only got the shot because of the expected gate in England as the article states.

-That's all superficial. Both KOed guys who weren't there to put up any resistance. Coetzee's vaunted right hand was shattered after Dokes, he was no longer a threat.

 

I am going by memory. Coetzee was rated higher because as ex champ his rating was maintained by the organisation he represented by winning his comeback fight against tillis. I also remember there was some controversy about the long round that contributed to his losing the title to page. Wasn't there some call for a rematch? A Coetzee-page rematch could even have been passed over for Tubbs.

The right hand, the "bionic" one, was an issue throughout Coetzee's career but never prevented him from looking anything less than a good fighter at elite level. On paper Coetzee was still at elite level and only 30 years old. He was not a short notice sub. It was an official WBA title eliminator as far as I know. It was high profile.

At that point Bruno was the untested one. He was European champion and had been exposed by bonecrusher in his only internationally high profile fight.

Coetzee getting past Tillis just before meeting Bruno was no joke either. Tillis later gave Biggs and Tyson a run for their money. They could not knock out Tillis at that time either. Coetzee outpointing Tillis was reasonable form for decent fighters at that time.

The shape Coetzee was in for Frank looked no worse than he was against Page as champion. In fact he still looked better than either Page, Tubbs and Witherspoon physical condition at that time in title fights.

It is hard to gauge the ambition of heavyweights but in eliminators for titles at that kind of level it is unusual for one guy to just dump it. This was a legitimate KO and a worthy win.

 

-Yes, Coetzee demanded rematch but WBA did not grant him one.

-He needed two surgeries on his hand after Dokes, the bionic right was finished. He was struggling to use it against Page and reports from the Tillis fight state he barely used it all.

-Outpointing Tillis was reasonable form but not in a close fight in your own backyard where you end up with missing teeth, cut to ribbons, and hospitalized.

-Eh? He was about 15 lbs heavier than he was against Page and looked to have lost muscle mass, and obviously his right hand was useless as evidenced by his previous two fights.

-Reports state otherwise. Coetzee was on vacation in England.