When I think of the end of Rocky Marciano's career I think of a slowly deteriorating fighter. His only two knockdowns came at the end of his career. He was taking longer to get fighters out of there (The brutal Cockell slaughter) So on and so forth. The same applies to Joe Frazier. Both had short careers by most standards. Frazier was always coming forward. Always being hit. And almost never, ever getting his guy out of there with one shot or without resistence. And there's the difference between the two, Frazier lacking the one punch KO power that Marciano had. Frazier ground you out of there, where as Marciano has some legitimate one punch KO's like his stoppage of Matthews. End result is Frazier taking a lot more punishment then Marciano and being damaged goods fairly early in his career, even more so then Marciano. Joe was hit in almost every hit he was ever in. Even some of his less important fights were prolonged wars. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- The fight with Machen went on forever. Machen had him an inch from being on the canvas with a big right hand off the ropes as well. Bonavena? Well, those fights go without saying. Both went the distance and Bonavena is an extremely hard puncher. 25 rounds with those two trying to kill one another. Some say Foster buckled Frazier for a second. Sure didn't take too many shots in that one though. But still, Foster was potentially the hardest single shot P4P hitter of all time. Stander hit Frazier pretty damned hard and stunned him. Chuvalo was a huge, unbelievably strong man. Most people forget he had 64 knockouts in 73 wins, and he had knockout strings going until he retired at almost the age of 40. So on and so forth. Another facet of this train of thought... Marciano fought no very good fighters up until his 20th fight against Lowry, and most of them were absolute bums. Compare that to Frazier who in his 11th, 12th and 13th fights went against Bonavena, Machen and Doug Jones. Thoughts? After being hospitalized and being on his deathbed post FOTC was Frazier really done?
He wasn't the same fighter after FOTC thats for sure. He still was dangerous but not the same marvelous fighting machine. His reflexes and balance declined, he was getting hit more and more...Win over Ali in 71' was imo the best performance by a HW ever.
I totally agree with you that the abuse from taking that many hits over his career greatly reduced Frazier's shelf life, FOTC being the greatest single example of punishment taken & probably the fight that did the most to end his career. Not to hijack the thread, but I found it really interesting reading through boxrec and seeing how many all-time greats wouldn't be allowed anywhere NEAR the heavyweight division if they were coming up these days. I'm talking guys between 5'10 and 6'0, who fought the majority of their careers around or under 210. Marciano, Frazier, Chuvalo, Bonavena, Jerry Quarry, Shavers; heck even early Tyson kinda fits into that description. Only 2 active guys I can think of that are remotely like that these days are Minto and Tommy Z - neither considered too much of a contender. Mentality's a bit different these days. People used to want to fight the toughest people they could be competitive with, now they want to get to the lowest division they can in order to have a size advantage. Trainers don't seem to want to get behind a heavyweight unless he's taller than 6'2 and built like a football player. I just find it interesting. I don't think Frazier or Quarry would've had that much trouble holding onto a belt in this era of the superheavy.
I would have to agree with you for the most part. He did take a a lot of punishment and faced good opposition early in his career. I always argue with posters because many like to point to his age when he was past prime and say he wasn't. By the age of 29, when he fought Foreman, he wasn't at his best anymore but wasn't completely shot.
Copying my post from another thread: Here's what George Foreman said before the fight against Frazier: "I like fighting right now because there's still something I haven't done yet. I want to keep fighting until I get to the top, reach the pinnacle. But Frazier and Ali, what do they have to accomplish? I saw Frazier fight Quarry. After the knockout Joe was so happy he could hardly talk. Same with Ali. After Ellis he hugged his manager like he couldn't believe it. How much water's got to go under the bridge? How many times you got to go in a gym and work on the same thing when you got nothing left to prove? The only thing Frazier could be fighting for now is money, and that ain't enough of an edge to keep a man going. You get hurt fighting just for money. You never get hurt fighting for pride and achievement." "I'm worried none," Foreman said. "I thought, I would be, but I'm not. Last couple of times I saw Joe fight, he'd got to the point where he was just looking for that one good punch. It's the matter of a blind man trying to get somewhere. Keeps tapping his stick around. Soon as he puts his stick where he wants it to be, he's homebound. But I ain't gonna be waiting while he's tapping. I'll be punching. If I throw 10 punches in a row, I'll get him with six. Can't anybody stand up to that." "Frazier has dined with kings and presidents, and now he's got to leave it," he said. "Nobody should keep the championship more than three or four years. A real champion should never have to be beaten. My goal is to retire undefeated. Lots of guys say that, but when they get the title they think it belongs to them and don't know when to give it up. The title doesn't belong to anybody on a permanent basis. You just hold it for a while and then you lose it to time or to somebody. Joe Frazier doesn't represent himself poorly. He carries himself in a good manner. But he's through with the title. A man shouldn't be an athlete after the age of 27. You got no business getting up in the morning and sweating and running down the street at that age. After a certain age it's good to keep your body in shape, but you ought to be more stable-minded than an athlete." http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1086945/6/index.htm
This was a good analytical post[surprisingly ] until the last line which imo is egging the pudding.Frazier put up a terrific fight in the T I M, he could not have done that if he was shot.But full marks to the rest of the post:good
Frazier was mentally tougher than his constitution. Most of the time, when he was hungry, he could work through the daze. His career was short because you just can't sustain that mental toughness. I think Rocky was the same way. I disagree with the notion that Rocky was more of a one-punch knockout guy than was Frazier. I don't think the evidence supports that claim.
Wow look at the difference in fraziers body in those two pics. in 1968 Frazier was lean and ripped and looked hungry and fierce. In the 1973 photo, you can see pudge and flab all over his midsection and upperbody and his face has the look of a shopworn fighter.
You are young and in your prime Suzie,you take condition for granted,you are talking about a 6 years gap here.Actually in the bottom photo neither man looks that ripped ,its not flattering to Foreman at all .Yet in the fight he looked like a collossus
Great Post overall Russell and I agree with the idea. I do however have one small problem with this part... You see I don't think this is fair to say. Rocky Marciano had only 8 Amatuer fights, and he did not even start working with Al Weill and Charlie Goldman until about his 15th pro fight. Joe Frazier on the otherhand, was an Olympic Amatuer Champion and worked with Futch and Durham right from the start of his pro career, Frazier had the clear edge in Amatuer experience and world class training. When Rock turned pro, Marciano needed the experience before being sent in with the young lions. When you take into consideration he was thrown in against 8-0 and 15-0 prospects in his 3rd and 4th fights, it makes the light seem brighter at the beginning of marcianos tunnel. I also believe Eddie Machen and Doug Jones were walking corpses when Frazier tangled with them in 67, although most young champions on there way up have been known to beat hasbeens on there way down. Good Job though Russell, you made your point quite clearly
I'm just pondering a thought that it looks to me as if Joe Frazier, despite being 29, was nowhere near his prime when he fought Foreman in 1973.
I wouldn't be so sure about the look on his face on that picture. He was being smashed and about to be clubbed down. But i agree, the worst thing for a fighter to lose is motivation... still, i think Foreman would've always destroyed him. By the way, thanks for the pictures. They are of great quality.
Yes being clubbed by Foreman is apt to take the smile off your face,and replace it with a look that says ,"I hope I can contain this **** in my protector"
