frazier fotc 1971 vs foreman 73.

John....I've watch both fighters live and in person you have not. Expert opinion trumps an uninformed opinion any day. Again no one who knows anything back in those days felt Joe could beat Foreman. Joe was rated higher than George because he beat and gave fits to Ali the typical no 1 all time. That's the facts jack.

 

The Foreman that fought Joe is 76 was pacing himself nicely...he could have fought all night in that manner. Joe was trying to do an Ali on George but he just was not built to fight that way.

 

Joe was really just too damaged from all his ring wars for the second Foreman fight. He was not in the best of shape being so heavy and tended to go to the ropes to rest. Futch didn't want Joe to do that because of all the bombs Foreman threw. Of course
these bombs began to pile up in the fifth and one of them knocked out Joe's contact lense which also threw Joe off. Foreman sensed it and went to town. Another problem was Joe's height. It worked against him with George in trying to move away. Foreman was getting to Frazier despite Joe's movement. Another topic, but Joe showed a great chin in this fight in getting as far as he did while taking those bombs from George.

 

Frazier was trying to emulate Alis rope dope. He did everything he could to get through the early rounds hoping he would see an exhausted Foreman in front of him. He even shaved his head trying to play with Georges mind. Did not work. George paced himself slowly beating down Frazier. A counter left hook put him down in the 5th and he struggled to his feet...he was really hurt. The next two punches put Frazier down and ended the bout. The final right hand sprayed Fraziers teeth into the crowd.

 

My opinion is that Joe had three peak fights: Ziggy, Jerry Quarry I and Jimmy Ellis I. Bonavena II at the end of 1968 gave him championship distance experience which got him to the top level. A busted ankle between Ellis I and Bob Foster slightly diminished him for both BF and the FOTC, although the FOTC certainly established his retention of power over the 15 round limit.

Agreed. It's entirely possible that George would have hurt and decked him in the opening round, despite his fast start on Ziggy, but Frazier would be in much better condition for clearing his head and recovering more quickly.

Joe actually adapted to Ron Stander's forward march with good movement in his final successful defense, but he was actually taller with a slightly longer reach than Stander, and of course wasn't knocked senseless in the opening round.

In the FOTC, Frazier and Ali exchanged big rounds. Muhammad sent Joe retreating towards a corner with a 1:15 left to go in round 12. Just the previous round, Frazier had him staggering all over the ring after the hardest punch Smoke landed the entire bout, a knee buckler in a neutral corner with 45 seconds left to go in round 11. [Many boxing experts have concluded that it was this shot, not the picturesque knockdown punch to open round 15, that was the hardest scoring head shot of the entire bout.] Round 11 came after Ali had previously driven back Joe in round nine. Muhammad proceeded in round 12 almost as if round 13 had never taken place, and did well in round 13 also.

Joe was not able to recover between rounds one and two in Jamaica. Certainly the tremendous power George applied with that second knockdown punch near the end of the opening three minutes had something to do with that, but neither did Frazier have the conditioning necessary for the quick powers of recuperation both he and Ali displayed in the FOTC.

Yes, and his weight gain of over a dozen pounds for his three title defenses after the FOTC and the diminished intensity during his post fight interviews following Daniels and Stander bring that very much into evidence.

Peak for peak, I don't see Joe hurting George in the opening rounds, but I do see him clearing his head as needed to recover and adapt accordingly if Foreman caught him early, and he had good defensive elusiveness in the FOTC against a much, much faster opponent.

Get George into the mid championship rounds and beyond, then Joe would retain the power necessary to hurt a fatigued Foreman.

If George did take out peak Frazier early as he actually did in Kingston, that wouldn't take much out of Joe, not being an attrition situation. Then there would be an inevitable rematch. We did see Frazier swell up Foreman's right eye with his hook in their return, and Joe boxed smartly and moved surprisingly well over 20 pounds above his peak weight. Give the 203 pound Frazier of 1969 a return against the Foreman of 1973, and I like his chances a great deal against somebody who hadn't gone any distance in double figures since Peralta II.

Not so confident about FOTC or Bob Foster era Frazier coming off that ankle injury, but do like the chances of the 1969 early 1970 Smoke against any version of George, especially in a rematch, if George again pulls off the upset in a first meeting.

 

Not fair to say he wasn't built for that rematch strategy when you consider where he was at this stage of his career. He was 20 lbs over his prime weight, visibly slowed down, and an overall physical mess after the savage Manilla fight. He was now nearly completely blind in his bad eye and according to his book, was actually secretlly wearing a contact lense into the fight out of desperation to retain some vision. He frankly had no business in the ring, but he still managed to do better against a very sharp Foreman.

Nothing is for certain, but you have to say a younger, fresher 205 lb Frazier would have to be more effective than his slower, wrecked self. Especially with upperbody movement and stamina being so crucial in such a strategy. And I'm not sure Foreman could fight that way all night, he was missing lots of shots and Frazier was finding a home for his left hook.

 

That's how I'm looking at it as well. And the bolded part is being overlooked, Frazier was having some success in that rematch despite being in such poor shape.

 

Prime Frazier has no chance beating foreman. No man can fight George in a crouch and survive. Joe can't out maneuver George if he decides to move as he tried in fight 2. George is too good cutting off the ring. Any one punch from Foreman can end the fight and he is going to land many more than just one punch. Frazier had two shots to show something against George...anything....all he got was arguably an even round in round 4 of the rematch. As soon as George opened up in the fifth it was over. What saved Joe from an early ko was Foremans new slower paced style. Instead of a quick ko it became a brutal beat down over 5 rounds. Yes I know it was past prime Frazier but he showed zilch both in that bout and against the best Foreman in 73. Noway he turns all that around for a win in his prime. Can't think of a worst style matchup. To beat George prime George you cant get hit cleanly. Everyone hit Frazier cleanly.

 

The other thing is....there is no recovering from the level of beating Frazier took in round one in 73. Worst beating since Dempsey Willard. I don't think those here understand just how hard a puncher Foreman was. There is no comparison between how hard this man punched and Ali or Bonevena.

 

I watched the second fight last night. It was a brutal beat down over 5 rounds. Pretty hard to watch if your a Frazier fan. Cosell said the fourth round was perhaps even but truth be told George was just beating him up slowly. Counter hook...one punch put Joe down in the fifth and he was koed by a right hand a few seconds later. Fraziers teeth sprayed into the crowd from that last punch. Foreman looked great here. He was firing at times a straight from the shoulder right hand that staggered Joe a few times earlier in the bout. Frazier did land a few good hooks but they never bothered Foreman.

 

Johansson-Patterson I, round three.

There's plenty of footage showing what kind of puncher Ingo was. As with Foreman-Frazier I, that second knockdown punch when Floyd was walking away with his hands down after getting up from the first knockdown could have been a killer.

Yes, there is recovery from the kind of beating Frazier took in round one in 73, and Floyd is the proof. It wouldn't be the last single round beating Patterson came back from. And Willard-Floyd Johnson is on youtube, surprising many viewers with how good Jess looked at 41. No, he was never remotely in Dempsey's league, but it was he before anybody else who headlined the first boxing card at newly constructed Yankee Stadium, and did so in fine form before 63,000 eyewitnesses.

 

He was not my hero at all. I cheered for Frazier in both bouts.

The problem is....Foreman hardest blows were his uppercuts and Joe no matter how he bobs and weaves won't be able to escape them all. Foreman...and Ali stated this after he fought Foreman...was quick. Ali stated that in the first round he did not expect that George would be as fast as he was. Any one punch from Foreman can end the fight or at the very least start the end of the fight. So not only is George taller and bigger and stronger, and hit much harder....he was a quick opponent as well. The deck is completely stacked in Foremans favor.

Your looking at this from a boxing textbook...YES the way to fight a taller man is from a crouch but it's just not what you want to do when the man is not only taller but hits like a sledgehammer and can knock you out with a single blow. Frazier can as he showed in fight 2 bob and weave avoiding say 40 percent of the quick and powerful blows being thrown his way...the other 60 percent beat him to a pulp so even though he was not kd in the first 4 rounds...he was getting beaten up.

So prime Frazier and the Foreman from the first fight meet in mid ring. That jab is still going to stagger him, that uppercut is still going to nearly decapitate him, that counter hook is still going to drop him, that final right is still going to catapult him into the air. Ok you may say ...that prime Frazier slips all those punches...fair enough...he can't slip them all and the ones that do land will do the same damage. Frazier did not have the boxing ability to outbox prime Foreman nor the physical strength to push him back.

Foremans stamina issues are pointed to with his bout with Ali who HAD the boxing ability, reach, combination and right hand to win that fight. Ali was not there to be hit with ko blows...he was standing up straight away from Georges power zone. Also Frazier had no right hand which was the punch to hit Foreman with. Alis constant lead rights also broke down George further exhausting him. Foreman fighting at his own pace as he could do with Frazier stamina would not be an issue.

Finally and I made this point earlier...Frazier had two cracks at Foreman and he was brutally koed both times. The first bout is compared to Dempsey Willard. There is no way your going to turn all that around to a Frazier win and I don't care what prime shape Joe is in. What happened in those two bouts is very clear and it would be very similar no matter when or how many times they fought.

Suggest watching both bouts and see how every solid blow crushed Frazier. Joe was never hard to hit and Foreman would always be able to hit him with those terrible shots to body and head. Nobody and I mean nobody hit like Foreman.

 

Silly. Ingo was among the worst hwt champions we have ever had. Foreman one of the best. Patterson and ingo were physically match well. Foreman was dominant over Frazier physically. Finally they fought twice so Joe had two shots and both were brutal ko stoppages. Joe showed no ability...none...to be able to handle prime 73 foreman or less than prime 76 Foreman. Not a shred of evidence in two fights Frazier had any ability to handle Georges power.

Finally...and this is a real silly discussion....no one who lived thru that time believes Frazier could ever beat Foreman. One of the many revisionist theories that, typically, holds no water whatsoever.

 

That's not accurate, I think Foreman was winning the rounds as Frazier was on the defense but it wasn't a burtal "hard to watch" beat down.

As I recall round 5 when Foreman hurt and finished Frazier, were the best punches he landed the whole fight.

 

Now this is just silly, I really have nothing more to discuss with you.