Frazier & Norton vs Foreman - wrong strategy?

"If that's a fight you wouldn't bet on then you should never bet on any fight basically"

Basically, that statement makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

I have my opinions, you have yours.

Prime Frazier does not automatically get destroyed by prime Foreman.

 

Nice way to try discrediting what I've said. It's poorly worded but it makes fine sense.

Foreman bombs out Frazier at least 19/20 times. :good

 

Have a good night, PetethePrince.

 

Frazier & Norton vs Foreman - wrong strategy?

No, wrong men.

 

:good:good:good:good

 

Did better in the second fight ? How many rounds did he win?

 

I see your point PetethePrince as we've argued this before.

I will say this though about Frazier vs Foreman. There's no way that George beats the Joe Frazier of 1967 - 1970 inside two rounds. Out of respect for Frazier and based on what Ali said, who beat both Frazier and Foreman, FOTC Frazier was quicker, stronger, and much harder to hit than what he showed in Jamaica standing right in front of George. Yes we all know the evidence was there in two fights against Foreman where Joe lost twice, the second fight with a smarter game plan that I have a hard time believe that you wouldn't admit that he was shot. Anyone who thinks Frazier was prime after the FOTC is dillusional.

The difference in conditioning between Frazier's prime years and the the 1973 title defense is night and day. I do agree somewhat that Frazier being past it is overstated in the sense that he was only two years removed from the FOTC when he defended against Foreman. However, Frazier's declining medical condition I believe is understated and vastly ignored when put into perspective of his fighting style. The man wore contact lenses in the second Foreman fight because of his cataracts and the fact that he couldn't see clearly. I don't believe FOTC Joe Frazier would get destroyed less, surviving perhaps a couple of rounds more as you suggest. I'd strongly bet on the prime version of Frazier to survive Foreman's early power, get closer to his body and make a serious fight out of the contest. At the same time, I wouldn't put it past prime Frazier to wear Foreman down and stop him before the bell sounds for round 10. Prime Frazier made Ali miss many punches, and Foreman doesn't have the quickness in his fists to land as cleanly and frequently as Ali did. Another factor in the fight is the that Mercante allowed Foreman to basically turn the contest into a wrestling match, which should not have happened if he was doing his job.

 

He Did better as in surviving is what we're saying basically. He fought from the distance where George couldn't nail him so often. This delayed the inevitable knockout.

Even if Joe would have stuck to this fight plan and avoided getting KO'd, he probably would have lost on points anyway,

 

:huh

 

This is essentially why I can never see Frazier beating Foreman. The styles are a big contributing factor, but the nuts and bolts of it is that Frazier simply couldn't take George's big shots, and when you can't take a man's punches, and you're a 'forward only' type that Frazier was...well, you're living on borrowed time.

Same for Kenny. He was an outside fighter, but George would check that chin at some point, and from there it's goodnight sweetheart.

 

There are "ifs" here but if Frazier was the FOTC version and didn't underestimate Foreman, Frazier had a decent chance in this match.

 

Joe said that he didn't really watch any Foreman fights before their fight, so he didn't really know what he was getting into. Everyone expected Smokin Joe to murder Foreman before their fight took place. Joe looked invincible at the time. Everyone underrestimated Foreman, including Joe Frazier himself. This is an interview between Joe, Dick Cavett and Bill Cosby where they discuss this. This was shortly after Joe lost to George.

[youtube]2zWMuhX8BWs[/youtube]

 

Bingo

Essentially that's what it comes down to. I imagine a better conditioned Frazier takes it better and doesn't falter or get downed quite as fast but really. For him to continuously break down the larger fighter who has arguably the best power of any HW with a solid chin and the range and strength to push him off requires a little bit of fantasy. Stylistic nightmare for Smoking Joe. The fact that Frazier was a come forward fighter and a slow rhythm starter fighter hurts him even more.

 

It's always good to see someone backing up their point with footage :good

 

Of course I think he could last longer than 2 rounds. Of course 73 Frazier wasn't prime. But not prime isn't shot. If you think 73 Frazier was shot than it's you who is delusional. I'm talking 73 not 76 Frazier.

Look. This is what it boils down to. Frazier is a come forward fighter. In my mind a slow starter. He's a rythm fighter which is why I think he's. Frazier's weakness is Foreman's bread and butter the hook/uppercut. Foreman's handspeed is underrated on this site. He throws combos together faster than Liston in my mind. His footspeed is also underrated.

Now, this version of Frazier won't be in quicksand, but it all comes down to him avoided his power. He just can't, with his style avoid the big bombs from Foreman. And no way does he break him down before getting hit.

As for the Mercante letting Foreman push. I really love how Frazier fans love to blame the refs. This is 2 fights now. Frazier's corner complained which probably pissed Foreman off. What did he do? Nailed and bombed Frazier out with deadly combos and uppercuts and got him out of there literally 10 seconds after Frazier's corner complained into which the ref warned Foreman.

We'll keep it simple. How many times does Frazier beat Foreman out of 10 or 20 times in his prime? I will answer. Foreman I think beats Frazier 10/10 times. I can say at the very least he wins 19/20 fights. All this, prime Frazier does better. Really, he just can't take his power. This is what it boils down to. And whether Frazier lasts 3,4, or 5 rounds doesn't matter much. Foreman didn't just beat Frazier he demolished him.

With all your defending of a prime Frazier being a much more game fighter. Stylistically, it is a terrible matchup. He may avoid punches longer and may be better conditioned but really does he beat Foreman? Is it a good matchup? No.

I suspect Marciano does better than Frazier ever would against Foreman. I believe in his durability more and he has the power to possibly disturb Foreman. The thing is... I would bet on Foreman against Marciano and I wouldn't make a post about how Marciano has a high chance. Any fighter has a fighting chance but stylistically it's a very bad matchup.

Thinking a prime Frazier has a chance to wear down and beat Foreman requires quite the faith in your favorite fighter (Especially seeing him get knocked down 10 times against this man). It's requires the same amount of faith to believe a Marciano would wear down or bomb out Foreman. What did you say when a poster said that? "That's a first. LoL."