Frazier & Norton vs Foreman - wrong strategy?

I dont really see what the big debate is here

foreman beats frazier

you can argue about hypothetical versions of each fighter and strategies but theres no real need when they fought twice with conclusive results is there

 

Mando Ramos hurt Frazier early, Oscar Bonavena hurt Frazier early, even Quarry did well early.

They could not hit like Foreman.

Foreman's crushing blows finds Joe's jaw no matter what...( and don't discount the body shot George gave Frazier just as a wake-up call)

 

Frazier was a nice guy.
He was laughing along with Bill Cosby and those guys but I feel they were being a bit disrespectful.

 

Norton was terrible backing up. He fought a better fight against Foreman than Shavers (when he just layed on the ropes) but George was going cut the ring off eventually and when he did, Norton was quickly knocked out.

He may as well have gone right at Foreman since that was what he did best. He started boxing in his 20's and as a result was rather one-dimensional in his approach. Thinking he could suddenly turn boxer was the wrong idea.

Frazier as said was not in the greatest shape. He didn't alter his gameplan however, the gameplan he used in his last two fights that is, which was to stand right in front of his opponent and throw wild left hooks to the head, thinking his opponents would go. In truth he did not have that kind of punching power.

After the Foreman fight, even Frazier admitted he fought stupid. The best way for him to fight Foreman is how he fought Chuvalo.

 

It would have been virtually impossible for either of these two to adopt a different strategy against Foreman. To do so they would have to go on the retreat for sustained spells. Neither of them could have fought like that.

 

Frazier showed in the 1976 rematch he was capable of using different angles of approach against Foreman.
He was also a million degrees from his best. Foreman was probably not the same fighter he'd been 3 years earlier either though.

 

Yes,but Frazier could n't have kept it up over a long period of time. I know that he was washed up after Manila,but it would have been hard for him at any time during his career.

 

Well, he might have been able to keep it up for enough rounds to get Foreman tired. Foreman's punches became weak in many of his longer fights.
Frazier could have done better.
But I think the Foreman of 1973 was a ferocious prospect for any version of Frazier and any strategy Frazier brings. Obviously. I would favour George any time.

 

It's a case of having someone's number is n't it ? In turn,Muhammad Ali would always have Foreman's.

 

Agree with you 100% Yancey.

George would have had a much tougher fight if he was the opponent standing across from Frazier in the FOTC or earlier. Certainly Joe wouldn't have stood up right in front of Foreman in his power range simply trying to outmuscle the bigger man. I'd bet on prime Frazier fighting Foreman the same way he fought George Chuvalo, using more footwork, jabs and counters when he's pressured himself. The common misconception about Frazier's style is that he's successful only coming forward, but the man could counter, land the right hand and set it up with a jab, sometimes moving backwards.

 

Exactly.

Chuvalo pressured Frazier and backed him up a couple of times in the fight. What did Joe do? He backed up, jabbed, countered and used his right hand more, and in better condition, showed the head movement against Chuvalo that he didn't against Foreman. Plus the fact that Chuvalo wasn't allowed to turn the match into a wrestling contest like Mercante allowed Foreman to do against Frazier. Now we all no there's a distinct difference in punching power between Chuvalo and Foreman, but not a whole lot of difference strength wise. Chuvalo says he was never hurt against Foreman and still to this day believes the ref stopped the fight way too early.

 

The thing is, going into the second Foreman-Frazier fight, George had the mental edge. Frazier was also over 224 pounds and wore contacts. A FOTC Frazier,
with the '76 gameplan, and we may have a much different outcome.

 

Chuvalo was one of the most physically strong heavyweights ever as well. We're talking about a man who could put up 400 pounds at the age of 70, and was heavily into bodybuilding from the time he was a young teen.

People forget how rock solid Chuvalo looked at 220 pounds.

 

It wouldn't have made a bit of difference what they tried, they still couldn't beat foreman. Frazier just didn't have the physical tools to win and while norton did have the tools he couldn't take a punch well enough to win. Neither were defensive masters and had slow feet, which would spell doom for them once they got hurt because they wouldn't be able to move fast enough to get away from foreman.

 

Norton sitting on the ropes and Foreman using him like a "paddle-ball", or Frazier trying to escape and Foreman swatting him to the canvas like a fly.