Frazier the night he beat Ali vs. Douglas the night he beat Tyson.

it's a good thread. frazier wins by late tko. each time tokyo douglas and joe frazier fight (say a trilogy) - you can guarantee it'll be a night of lots of leather - but you can also guarantee frazier will win each time. how does the fight go? douglas throws 30-50 jabs in the first two rounds and keeps joe at bay. douglas takes those rounds. rounds 3-4 douglas starts throwing combinations at the distanced joe and gains respect. smokin joe responds with some good hooks to body and hooks to head that douglas blocks. rounds go to douglas whose chin is holding up well against fierce shots. round 5 douglas wobbles joe (as in keeping him off balance) with terrific combinations from INSIDE and out. trouble is, joe was a GREAT infighter - he responds with right to body and some counter hooks that slows down douglas. those shots could really hurt douglas, maybe knock him down, but douglas of tokyo shows grit and heart and gets up if needed - with his senses intact.

by round 6 - joe has started smokin' and the hooks to the body start pouring. he keeps pressuring douglas and douglas responds with great 3 punch combinations that do land and wobble joe - but joe keeps coming with own body shots and hooks. douglas had good power but not enough power to overcome fraziers chin + heart punch resistance. douglas uses his jab but joe bobs and weaves and times his counters well. at this point - douglas' only purpose with the jab is to keep joe at bay - which proves futile. douglas bravely fights but frazier's awful body shots are just too much to bear - he is immobilized. joe really turns the heat by round 10 and either douglas takes a beating (he is highly motivated) on his feet - or the ref stops it. the left hooks come pouring upstairs. douglas is never down for the count - but he is gone.

so as you see - douglas has a great start - but relentless frazier's intelligent body punching, work rate, toughness, and left hook prove too much.

 

In all honesty? Douglas.

The Douglas that fought Tyson in Tokyo would be a nightmare for Frazier. Frazier was a guy that had to have to barrel in and put his head on your chest to really do his magic, and we all saw how Douglas manhandled Tyson in the clinches. If he can keep a superior two-fisted puncher with much greater handspeed off of him in Tyson, he can do it with Frazier.

Douglas was a big guy, too, he was 6'4" and around ~230lbs in 1990. He had an 84" reach. To put it in perspective, he's physically Lennox Lewis, minus an inch of height and 10-15lbs of weight. To top it all off, he had a solid chin. Douglas definately had the physical tools to become an ATG, but the only night he really had the motivation was that night in Tokyo.

Frazier's heart would keep him in the fight, but I can see him either being manhandled to a UD or stopped late through attrition ala Douglas-Tyson. Frazier's best shot at winning would be an insane workrate, which might win him an SD or close UD, but I can't see him doing enough work when the much larger Douglas clinches him every time he gets close. Clinching would probably be more effective against Frazier than Tyson, even, because he was not only smaller, but preferred to do his work on the inside. Tyson was a mid-range guy.

 

some key pts...

1. tyson landed a great SINGLE left hook to the body of douglas in round 3. its effects are very noticeable as it slowed down douglas in that round. it shows that douglas, despite his great heart that night, was still human and was indeed VULERNABLE to body punches. this was one of the few moments in the fight where tyson stopped head hunting and did the smart thing (proly by accident) - go to body first. frazier lived by that principle.

2. tyson tried to use his reflexes to slip douglas' fast jab. normally his great reflexes would work against ordinary handspeed - but douglas' were very fast. stupid strategy against douglas and so the jab landed with great frequency. joe's constant bob and weave - took a lot of energy (and joe had lots of it) - would be much better at reducing how many douglas jabs land than tyson's method - hence douglas wouldn't have the same success with the jab on frazier as he did with tyson.

3. frazier was a GREAT inside fighter; tyson was a VERY bad inside fighter (despite his talents). tyson was NOT trained to fight on the inside. a lot of tyson fans will not agree with me and will cite fights like frank bruno. don't bother. i have my opinion - you have yours. tyson's problem on the inside was simple: he did NOTHING but was calm as a baby on a mother's neck, waiting for the ref to stop them. of the rare times tyson did something (round 5 holy) on the inside - he got great results. but if he was a great infighter - he'd have been more competitive with holy who made the entire fight an infight. tyson liked midrange. douglas totally schooled tyson inside with 3-4 punch combinations. people overlook this. frazier was HELL ON WHEELS on the inside.

4. frazier's relentless workrate was much superior to tyson's workrate. tyson wasn't bad in the late rounds - he was average. frazier in the late rounds - was as good as it get. this is bad news for joe.

douglas of tokyo was a good fighter, tyson made him look a lot better. dempsey, marciano, joe would have beaten douglas. a much more interesting question for me is how would tokyo douglas do against ali or holmes? that's for another thread.

 

i appreciate your honesty

except the ruddock and maybe the bruno fights - give me 3 examples where tyson pushed back an opponent during a clinch. you'll struggle.

even more difficult, except the green fight and holy round 5, find 3 examples where tyson punched his way out of the clinch rather than wait for the ref to break them.

tyson was very easy to clinch and he allowed himself to be pushed around by fighters not as strong as him. that was his mentality (not a physical issue). i don't think douglas was physically stronger.

comparison to lennox lewis is silly.

frazier was better at handling steady flow of jabs than tyson. the success rate of jabs landed by douglas was much higher than the jabs landed on frazier by ali (whose jab was better than douglas', as good as douglas' was).

clinching was 100% effective on tyson. tyson became a sleeping baby during clinches. once again, give me 3 examples where tyson pushes an opponent back during a clinch or punches himself out of a clinch. just 3! if anything, clinching a guy who wants you real close on the inside - is disaster!

 

Why is a comparison to Lennox Lewis silly? They are of roughly equal height and weight, and they have the same reach. Both are big men with a good jab and a good uppercut.

Frazier wasn't notoriously strong in the clinches, either. I wouldn't bet on anything other than Douglas handling him with ease when it came to the inside. It all comes down to the referee - if it's one of the refs from the Ali-Frazier fights, Douglas will molest Frazier via clinch every time he gets close.

 

True, but Ali pretty much neutralised Frazier by holding in their second fight. It wasn't pretty but it sure was effective.

 

Frazier was obviously greatly diminished in every way by the time of Ali-Frazier 2. Peak Frazier could be tied up, but not forever.

FOTC Ali clinched, threw those mean one-twos, uppercuts and combos, even tried dancing a bit, and could not escape those bone-crunching body blows and blistering hooks to the head.

Douglas, not a great power puncher, is outmatched here and TKO'd as his workrate slows and Frazier turns on all cylinders around the 5th. Douglas still makes his beloved mother proud.

 

fraizer would win, tyson was very bad in tokyo didnt train properly

 

Buster Douglas was inconsistent-which is why I don't rate him as an alltime great.Aside from that,I've always thought his performance against Tyson was no fluke-and that he would've also kicked Ali and Frazier's ass,the night he stopped Tyson.

 

I also think Frazier would TKO Douglas somewhere between the 9th and the 12th, but Douglas would be very competitive and i do think tying Frazier up takes away a lot of his game.

 

This is were we over RATE a fighter because a Great fighter comes into the ring out of shape.

Had Tyson train, come in at top peak shape that he SHOULD have, we would not being have this arugement right now of Douglas Tokyo vs Fraizer, Marciano, Ali Louis. ete. We might as well declear HEAD to HEAD that Douglas is one of the 1 or 2 greatness heavyweights that ever lived. For my money, Fraizer IN Shape does what Tyson SHOULD have done out of shape.

 

I don't even think it's too far out of the question for Douglas to stop Frazier, and here's why -

Douglas was a better puncher than Ali. Why? There's the physical aspect - he was bigger, and he sat down more on his punches (comparing Ali from Frazier I/III to Douglas from Tyson). He also stopped Tyson, someone who had an iron chin, in nine rounds. Now, I do believe that Tyson had a better chin than Frazier, but at the very least I'll concede that they were equal.

Ask yourself this - Ali landed hundreds of punches on Frazier in the FOTC. If that was a bigger, harder-punching man in the ring, could Frazier have been stopped?

Again, I'm not saying Douglas would stop Frazier 100% of the time, or even win 100% of the time, but it certainly has to be a possibility.

 

it was fairly illegal too but nevermind that. point 1: frazier in the second fight was at his worst - he wasn't nearly the same guy who fought fight 1 or even fight 3. point 2: douglas was no ali and tyson (my favorite fighter) was no frazier. douglas would have a tougher time clinching than ali - and tyson was A LOT easier to clinch than frazier. ali made it look easy. point 3: even when clinched, frazier had a chance of inflicting damage (ESPECIALLY fotc frazier) whereas tyson was a sleeping child. point 4: frazier's body punching would have WEAKENED douglas and taken away his strength.

of course - you and i agree on the result - you're just differing on a few pts. douglas may have some success early - but you can run you can't hide.

 

A less than stellar Tyson nearly KO'd the best Douglas ever, the best Frazier ever would win walking away.

This Frazier would probably handle any Tyson as well.