Frazier & Tyson who is greater?

No arguement there.

 

Yeah, and I think part of it was that Mike was more immmature than Frazier. Mike was sort of sheltered by people and probably more unpredicatable than Frazier, so he had to be controlled more and sheltered more to focus his energy on boxing. When he got fame he became independent and that was not good for his focus. But I think when he was focused he was a better two handed puncher than Frazier and better defensively. But Frazier handled the punishment better. Just two different fighters. I have to always give Mike the edge over Frazier prime vs. prime.

 

Excellent post mag 1965 on a side note i met mike on sunday no joke.

 

Did you really? My friend met him once and said one of the nicest guys around. I have met a few fighters. 95 percent of them are nice. One of the nicest was Genaro Hernandez. He was a such a great guy to meet and he was a great fighter. I really feel sadness for him and his family.

 

Excellent post Pete, especially with the quality examples of Frazier's clear vulnerability to uppercuts. I just want to add that I strongly believe, based on all the video footage I've seen of him (everything on youtube), Bonavena doesn't punch on the same realm as Tyson. I'm not saying he doesn't punch hard, I'm just saying his power was unremarkable in my honest opinion.

I'm not sure we'll truly know how much Wlad has improved against aggressive pressure, unless he faces Chisora & Mitchell. (Not Povetkin though, he's a fraud.) This is because it was the first Sam Peter fight, which was his baptism of fire, to push him to his Peak. Since then, the pressure fighters Wlad fought were too old, damaged or shot to even remotely test his improved abilities (Brewster II, Peter II, Mormeck). Anyway I believe Wlad clearly performs better in Peak H2H terms, win or lose, against Lewis, Ali, Holy, Bowe, Vitali & Frazier. Whereas Holmes in contrast performs better against Tyson & Foreman.

 

I never thought of it that way. Plus based on performances, Tyson blasted out guys and/or dominated them in his prime. Along with that and fame getting to his head he took boxing lightly and thought every fight would be like that.


Frazier had to breakdown guys and had a huge rival in Ali so he was allowed very,very less room to slack than Tyson was during his prime. Frazier is the epitome of hard work and things didn't come to him as easily as Tyson so he had to work much harder than him to get where he was/is.


Just a bigger heart but of course he couldn't work as hard as his training camps in Ali 1 and Ali 3 but that goes back to saying he had a legendary rival that would've beaten him with ease had he slacked off.

 

Bonavena has the closest claim to legitimately dropping Chuvalo. Charlie Goldman, who trained Bonavena, claimed Bonavena hit harder than Marciano. The second statement is far more suspicious considering Goldman could've easily been praising his new prospect. However, while Tyson probably, almost assuredly punched harder... I still stand by it being close. Bonavena was very raw, very crude, and hardly the most accurate puncher so his raw power could be deceptive.

As for the Frazier bit. Here is Frazier admitting this himself. 7:25

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QrfnP3Vr24[/ame]

Mitchell's not going to cut it. I don't really get how he's been thrown into line of legitimate contender. I get how there is no one around but Mitchell is a work in progress, and far from being where he needs to be I think. He's just not ready.

You have a high praise of Wlad. Holy-Wlad is interesting, seeing Holy drag Lewis into a relatively competitive fight at that stage of his career suggests Wlad has to be damn sharp to give that fight at a distance and just mug on the inside. He could possibly do that and win, but Holy's almost too much of a warrior... I respect him too much to just pick against him without further examination. However, Lewis, Frazier, Bowe, and even Vitali... I don't get those. Lewis eats Wlad up for breakfast every fight. I'd pick Holmes-Lewis to be a damn near coin toss. No way I see that with Lewis-Vitali seeing as the tougher brother couldn't cope with Lewis' "turn it into a street fight" tactics. There is no way Wlad is good enough to just keep Lewis on the outside, and force Lewis the entire bout to respect him in my opinion. Maybe that's yours. Frazier is Wlad's foil. Bowe might just be too physically gifted at a mid to close range if he can mentally handle Wlad from the get go. And Vitali might be too mentally strong for little brother. I don't see why Holmes couldn't necessarily out-box Vitali, though.

I definitely agree with Foreman. You're right on Tyson, but Holmes would lose but just last longer. Too vulnerable for the right I think. I actually agree on Ali, too. Wlad is a really bad style-matchup. Holmes-Ali would be great, too. But I'm comfortable thinking of Holmes as simply a lesser Ali really.

 

Nice post.

I think you're underestimating Frazier here. Kinda like a couple of others on this forum who seem to be pretty good at trying to discredit Smokin Joe. Most of it is based genuinely on the performances against Foreman and to some degree Bonavena. We all have our opinions about who's great and who isn't, but I'd like to add that greatness also comes from the words of other fighters who knew the men and the trainers as well.

Joe Frazier was well respected as one of the true tough guys of the sport. He was not an easy target, had considerable boxing skills to win a gold medal, and the heavyweight championship when the greatest heavyweight at that time was barred from the sport. Joe stepped up and beat every man put in front of him with a wicked left hook, body attack and arguably the greatest quantity of heavyweight stamina aside from Marciano, Dempsey, Louis or Jack Johnson.

Some will say Frazier avoided other big punchers in or near his time. Liston, Mac Foster, Lyle, Shavers. Contracts were supposedly on the table to fight the latter two but the fights never materialised. Frazier was never said to have backed out of those. Most importantly, he beat the fighters in the rankings who beat these same guys so a lot of the matches made were predicated on who beat who at the time.

Frazier was a great heavyweight. To say otherwise is just ignorant and stupid.

The same can be said about Mike Tyson. Many consider the prime Iron Mike 86-88 potentially the greatest heavyweight fighter that universally beats all the greats on their best nights. I've heard it many times over from different fighters and trainers. A prime for prime, head to head Tyson vs Frazier matchup would be an amazing fight. Lets cut out the BS of thinking the out-of-shape 73 Frazier would show up to this fight or the 90/91 Tyson with the crap in his messed up life who lost his title to Douglas.

Frazier with Durham and Futch in his corner and Tyson with D'Amato and Atlas, or Rooney. This fight could go two ways.

It could be wicked, vicious, toe-to-toe war for 3 or 4 rounds like Hearns vs Hagler. Tyson is more likely to come out on top in this scenario. Better right hand shots early and Frazier being a slower starter sometimes unfairly attached to him due to his association with Ali might work against him. Both men would be there to be hit. The main question is whether prime Frazier could survive prime Tyson's quickness and early power? What about the other way around. Could prime Tyson survive Frazier's pressure, pace and repeated body attack.

I tend to believe the superbly conditioned Frazier of the late 60's would weather Tyson's early storm and find his rhythm onwards to a late stoppage. Tyson probably has Frazier on the canvas a couple of times early and Joe is certainly more than capable of putting Tyson on the mat too. They are both heavyweights with heavyweight punches. Frazier's pace counters Tysons and despite not putting combinations together as quickly as Tyson, he punches a lot more repeatedly and makes Tyson miss more shots. Joe wouldn't stop going to Mike's body in the fight and he wouldn't have to reach to land his hook. Tyson's was a shade under 5'11, Frazier was a shade under 6'0. Joe's right hand is also discredited as well, which he often used very well on this inside. These are the differences different prime for prime IMO.

Frazier by KO around the 9th or 10th.

 

Lol

Holyfield ,tough as nails and granite chinned did not meet severely rusted not firing on all cylinders Tyson head on,,,,,

Lennox Lewis, as big, strong and skilled as they come kept a totally washed up Tyson at bay and the end of his punches and avoided a head on encouter by all costs....the same Lewis who fought another superheavy, VK , in a phonebooth....head on.

Meeting a prime Tyson Mano de Mano is suicide, the end.

I have the grreatest respect for Frazier but instead of smoking hecwould be smoked and quick too. Fact.

 

How did he meet him?

 

Bonavena dropping Chuvalo was a nice achievement, akin to Holyfield dropping Mercer, but with crude blunt force, as apposed to accuracy & skillful technique. I don't rank Bonavena's power as close to Tyson's as you do (due to how it looks to me on film), but you've done well to justify your stance. One thing about Chuvalo though, best thing that ever happened to him was being saved by the referee against Foreman. It was less than half way through the 3rd round, & without the TKO, I strongly believe George would've finished the hurt & helpless man in front of him. So it's really because of this early TKO loss on his feet, which allowed Chuvalo to keep his "indestructible chin" mythical reputation.

Watch from 12:27 to 13:17.

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In retrospect I see how limited & one-dimensional Mitchell is at the moment. Watching the Witherspoon fight, his defense was atrocious as he totally forgot to use headmovement, like he used against Ibragimov. Mitchell's brutal bodypunching is impressive though & I hope he keeps at it, but unless he works hard to improve his defense, he'll be KO'd by someone like Arreola. I think Byrant Jennings will go very far though, how about you, have you seen him against Liakhovich?

(I'll reply to rest of your post in the morning.)

 

Where are the facts that would suggest Smokin' Joe would be smoked quickly by Tyson? You're disrespecting Joe if you think Tyson would beat the prime version of him in the quick fashion you suggest.

Meeting both men in their primes is dangerous for any heavyweight fighter. I don't think you have much respect for Joe Frazier with the stuff you're saying here. It's bordering on ignorant.

Do you honestly believe Tyson would KO the same Frazier who stood across from Ali in the FOTC.

I'll give you this. Tyson has a good chance at KOing the version of Frazier who showed up to Jamaica in maybe 5 or 6 rounds, but I wouldn't bet on it.

 

it depends how you define greatness...Frazier had 3 hard wars with Ali got ktfo by george but had the balls to fight him again. ALL heart and balls but Tyson I believe (85-88 is the more complete, superior fighter and in a fantasy match up i'd bet on Tyson to knock joe out early. Joe only lost to Ali and Foreman though and those are legends. Both at their best Tyson

 

Frazier.

I just can't see Tyson beating Ali at any time. So I'll judge it that way (can't see Tyson beating Holyfield at any time either BTW).