Frazier Vs Foreman 2

You were very confident in saying Frazier had chin problems.... despite watching three fights of his. Two of them against quite possibly the hardest puncher in heavyweight history who's landed the hardest punches he ever landed on an opponent, and despite this could not put him down for the count.

In the other bout, Ali the Greatest Of All Time, laid down a tremendous amount of punishment which most would've succumbed to early imho could not put Frazier down or particularly hurt him.

If you actually watched Frazier you would see he does a right hook to the body and right uppercut.

At one point in his career half of his KOs came from his right hand.

Seems to me like you just don't like Frazier.

 

He had sixty seven professional fights and over one hundred amateur fights and never quit. Even in the Holmes fight his trainer stopped the carnage.

On Ali-Frazier 3:


“Ali was going to give his life. He had to perform,” King said. “Ali told me it was the closest to death he had ever come but that the cause was more worthy than he. The cause of manhood.

https://digitaledition.chicagotribu...spx?guid=5d5eeb94-ac6e-4cd5-bdb3-586ca0b25e2c

 

Joe was a lot of things but chinny wasn't one of them. But my friend, no stylistic adjustments were going to allow Joe to beat George. Joe was made to chop down big cats but George was a different kind of feline.

 

I agree. I'm not sure if anyone beats '73-'74 Foreman besides Ali truth be told. I'd narrowly favor Liston but that's it. Holmes is a live dog, as are Fury and Lewis but that's it. Only Ali and Liston are favorites and Ali is the only lock.

 

Yes he did, watch the fight again, the vast majority of posters on this forum agree he lost it.

It doesn't matter if it fit his character or not, he was completely exhausted, he could barely stand, he was about to throw in the towel. Luckily for him, Futch threw it first.

 

I see it very differently.
Except maybe Foreman could have ended it earlier-but he was ealing with a different style Frazier, taking a measured approach-stuill at best Frazier took a single round.

You need to watch & read about Frazier more.
He was a high volume HW puncher. How can you say he did not throw enough in his fights?
His power was very good-but not on Foreman's level. WHose chin was great.

It IS a styles thing.
You should rethink that Ali did not beat Foreman based largely around his game plan & brilliant execution of it!

One, Ali had the stylistic advantage, & feasted-like Joe Louis-on big sluggers.
But OTOH it was peak Foreman, past peak Ali who had lost much foot speed & could not dance for 15 rounds in the best of circumstances.
Watch "When We Were Kings".

That & many other sources will inform you that Ali also was suprised by Foreman's speed.
AND it was a very small, & soft ring-advantageous for a slugger, bad for a mover & boxer.
Ali saw that before too long, taking a few steps to Foreman's one (& considering how well he cut off the ring) he would become exhausted.
Also consider that a big part of gassing can be taking monster shots-& Ali admitted being out on his feet once or twice!


No Foreman had large net advantages, mainly youth & the fight conditions, that meant if Ali did NOT fight such a superb strategy, he would have been knocked out.

 

Look at my last post here. As most all know, Ali was past his prime, his (especially foot) speed & reflexes + ability to dance for a whole fight & endurance were way less than in the 1960's.

Styles are a big part of who wins.
"Physicals" also are.
However Ali was just better than Frazier-physicals being a large part of it.
What is a skill & a physical is muddy though. Frazier could throw so many punches in part due to being smaller.
And while very skilled, he did not have a great variety of punches, his right hand was relatively deficient, he had only one style (except for against Foreman #2, but he lost).
And was still an ATG because of all his ability & heart.

Ali Frazier 2 proves nothing, because Ali got away with a criminal amount of holding & pulling Frazier down.
Either man might have won a fair fight that night.

 

I'd add Joe Louis personally.

 

way too much holding

 

Frazier was out of shape for both Foreman fights. Who knows how he would have done if he had fought Foreman in the condition he was in for Ellis 1 or Ali 1? When a smaller, pressure fighter is not in great shape he is not going to do well. Frazier tried when the bell rang, but he let himself down by what he did in the 4-6 weeks prior to those fights. I think it was Vince Lombardi who said, "the will to win is useless without the will to prepare."

 

For sure Pat, for fighters of Joes ilk, being out of shape can make a lot of difference in their performance.

Given a prime Joe, I don’t know how much would change in the face of George though, he was a beast and there seemed a fair degree of stylistic advantage held by Foreman.

Having said that, at least in their first fight, George gained great advantage in manhandling Joe - pushing and turning him. That would make somewhat of a difference for Joe if Foreman was forbidden doing same.

Joe was one of the cleanest, open boxers. He came to fight - and even despite size disadvantages, the bigger guys like Forman and Ali felt need to stifle him via moves that weren’t pure boxing per se.

Not good that they resorted to such tactics but given the fact that they did, it reflected just how great a fighter Joe was.

 

He may had issues dealing with loss to Ali in general but you say I'm grossly incorrect but in the same sentence you say "he may have been confident against Frazier after making mincemeat out of him in the first time." You seem confused.


What's well documented is George was untested at the elite level going into Kingston and he also had a healthy respect for Joe Frazier bordering on being a bit fearful of him. I don't know when George said he was invincible as he even said after scouting Frazier " I want to become champion but I hope Joe Frazier dies first"
Ofcourse he was more sure of himself in New York because he knew he could do because he had already done it. More experienced, more poised a pinch heavier and probably a better trainer.

 

No confusion here except yours. Trying to convey he was a more confident fighter after being whipped by Ali when virtually no-one thought it possible and then dropped and almost stopped in a war against Ron Lyle immediately prior to rematching Frazier is ludicrous, to say the least. Nothing boosts the confidence more than tasting defeat and then near defeat back to back it seems.

Having flogged the absolute tripe out of Frazier in their previous fight would give him some confidence....against Frazier. This would have been aided by Frazier completely abandoning his trademark style and avoiding him. Overall however he was a bit of a damaged package, mentally.

There's a reason Foreman was only a 7-5 favorite. A great deal of confidence had been lost in him.

Foreman says a helluva lot of things doesn't he. Some people even believe them.

Fighters are always a bit fearful, as SRL said if you don't have it there's something wrong. Great fighters feed off it.

Foreman certainly looked like one very confident fighter in that fight fight. The proof of the pudding is in the ring.

 

Obviously the goal was to tire George out. The results were the results.