Frazier vs Holmes

Holmes wins, and everyone deep down knows this..

Everyone..!

People need to stop trying to be smart, just for the sake of the topic.

 

Holmes could fight inside, just like he did against Norton..!

 

Holmes I voted for a dec win ,but he could stop Joe because of facial swelling.
Larry's jab is harder than Ali's ,and, so is his right cross.
Holmes was physically very strong too,probably stronger than Frazier.
The only way I see Holmes going down is if Frazier times him and lands a lefthook over a slow right uppercut ,the punch that Larry was so effective with.Then again Holmes was hit by harder punchers than Frazier,decked and got up to win.
I remember Frazier against Mathis , Joe was behind for the first seven rounds ,then he came on as Mathis began to gas out , due to the pace and the body punishment.Holmes was never in the shape Buster carried to the ring,even as an old man. He beats Frazier.

 

Hey there ricardoparker, have you got the full version of the first Frazier-Ali fight? I had a look at that to get a kind of comparison and just wanted to see if you agreed that Frazier throws much less punches than people usually make out? - people always go on about Fraziers work rate and incredible stamina but, I don't know, when I'm in a really critical mood then I say - Frazier hardly throws punches at all for the first 4 rounds or so (I wonder whether people, from memory, are thrown a bit bit all that busy-bee bobing and weaving/shoulder rolling) and then later in the fight I think his stamina goes just as much as Ali's in the end - I remember thinking when watching the first Frazier-Foreman fight aswell - prior to any of the knockdowns I was saying out loud "He just not throwing anything - he's wasting all this energy frantically bobbing up and down while Foreman just keeps pushing him off and teeing off - and Fraziers not actually punching? At all!?" May watch it again because obviously when the knockdowns begin that's pretty much it (just a case of how many times can he keep getting up before the ref stops it) - but I'd be interested to do a count of how many punches Frazier did land - not sure i'll need more than one hand even? Let me know if you got this impression from watching Frazier fights aswell

 

Goto go with the better boxer in Holmes, I also aren't as sure Holmes is that open to left hands. Holmes said if Ali was that great he shouldnt have lost to Frazier. Then again Holmes had a very close fight with a similar lesser fighter in Witherspoon

 

Everyone talks about how Frazier was in decline ,yet no one mentions that in his ONLY win over Ali,Ali had 18rds of boxing in 4 years .Add he was 2 years older than Frazier,Ali beat Frazier ,because after losing to him he maintained a steady schedule taking on ranked contenders and beating them,whereas Frazier fought 2 unranked journeymen.
Prime Ali beats Frazier and there is no trilogy.
Alis physical gifts had diminished by 74 his foot work was slower ,his work rate was less. Chuvalo commented how in their second fight Ali was not the same man, that he could not sustain his attack for as long.Ali continued at the top far longer than Frazier ,because he is the best heavyweight ever ,and Frazier barely makes the top 10.IMO.

 

Yes and no McVey ....

I have always written that Ali suffered from decline and inactivity due to the exile ... that being said his performance in the first Frazier fight might have been his all time bravest ..

By the second fight Ali was in much better shape than Joe. Yes Ali was two years older but Frazier's style guarantees a much shorter career and Joe was already blind in one eye plus fighting with his damaged arm. Their 1974 fight really ment little as it was a ref's fight. Perez let Ali hold on for his life all night, clinch after clinch, and that had a huge effect on how the fight played out. There is a reason their thord bout was so much closer once again. Diferent ref, different style. Far different fight ...

Back to Frazier / Holmes , it's funny as I am a huge Holmes fan but I actually think Larry is a little bit overated by many here. Larry did not have Ali's chin, Ali's stamina or Ali's strength. Holmes never had to fight a brutally paced 15 round bout excluding Norton and Norton did not keep Frazier's pace. Frazier was a very rare breed, his speed greatly underated by many as well as his defense. I think he would have given Larry all he could have handled. When Larry was Joe's sparring partner in 74 Joe manhandled him, breaking three of his ribs.

 

Ali's bravest ? Quite possibly, Frazier had him out on his feet in the 11th ,only his balls kept him upright.But not his greatest.he needed more ring time before tackling Frazier,but as he was awaiting Court he did not have the luxury of time to prepare adequately,because there was real specualtion he might be imprisoned.The clock was ticking.

How about Larry's damaged arm against Norton?

I think he would have given Larry all he could handle ,but not beat him.

Sparring partners are there to make you look good ,not to beat you up.
Al Blue Lewis damaged Ali's ribs in sparring, but when they met for real ,though suffering from a heavy cold, Ali spanked Lewis.

Holmes could probably have beaten Ali in the last few years he was his sparring partner ,he has said so often enough,but that was not his function in training

,
Ali did not have his full stamina against Frazier in FOTC ,thats why he stayed on the ropes ,because he did not trust his legs, he was flat footed for the second half of the Bonavena fight and looked ordinary by his standards.
Frazier's defence is overated he finished many fights looking like a gargoyle,if he had met half the punchers Ali did he likely would have a few ko losses on his record.
Ali is on record as saying Frazier was easy to hit.

 

Holmes Sweet Holmes.

MR.BILL

 

I agree ,but he was NOT a prime Ali, he needed more ring rounds as his fight against Bonavena proved.
No excuse just a fact.
The Ali who beat Williams would not have been on the ropes for Frazier to pound on,he would have jabbed Frazier and used his legs to avoid return fire.

You think Frazier beats Holmes, I think the opposite. :good