Frazier vs Holmes

By the way JT, nice avatar, excellent taste as always

 

Cooney hit a lot harder than Frazier ever did .
I don't consider Ellis,Ramos,Bonavena ,Quarry . top flight punchers.
Even so Bonavena had Frazier down.
Whether Frazier had a better chin than Norton was never proved, imo as he only fought ONE big puncher and got annihlated.
Foster NEVER stopped a top heavyweight ,in fact he NEVER beat one.

I never said Larry would stop Frazier ,I said he would beat him.

 

I never seen Cooney in with a live contender and prove his power. Power he had but I have no proff his hook was better than Frazier and he definately did not have late power...Frazier proved he did in the 11th and 15th rd vs Ali

 

Frazier was a good champion; Holmes was a great champion...

MR.BILL

Note:

I think Quarry was a heluva good puncher........ However, Quarry was in the same boat as Ernesto Shavers was...... Both normally KO'd their "C" and "B" opponents and lost to their "A" boys.... If you cannot KO the "A" dudes' your power has got to be questioned a bit.......

 

atsch

Come on Bill. Shavers talent was the problem, not his power. Never mind most every opponent he fought said he was the hardest puncher they ever met. The effect one Shavers right hand had on Holmes, amd Ali for that matter is rather obvious.

 

I agree with you .I mentioned Cooney because the implication appeared to be, that Holmes never met a dangerous left hooker.
Frazier did not have as much steam on his as Cooney ,but,, he threw far more of them, and more compactly .

 

Still, either hurting or dropping your "A" players with a single shot but failing to score the much needed KO doesn't convince me Earnie Shavers is the hardest whacker of all-time...... I know he lacked skill and finess, but while his power was there, it is also fabled to a degree..... IMO!!
:hat

I don't think Joe Frazier is truly an ATG champion.... He is an ATG fighter overall, but not as a champion....... His title fight resume is not all that incredible...... So he hammers "Mathis, Ellis, Quarry, Foster, Ali , Daniels and Ron Stander" from 1968 thru '1972.... Ali being the guy to go the full 15 rds..... Christ, Frazier has lived off his rep off of the 1971 'Ali' fight eversince he got the decision in New York..... The '73 KO loss to Foreman haunts Frazier's reign.....

I have Larry Holmes in my top-3 ATG list of ex-champs.... Frazier is somewhere down at # 10....... The truth.....
:admin:rasta

MR.BILL

 

That is arguable.
EG, Zora Folley and Jimmy Ellis dumped Bonavena,and Ali floored him 3 times for a ko.Frazier NEVER managed to have him off his feet in TWO fights.
I am sure Frazier hit harder than Ali,Ellis and Folley.
How the hell you can say Cooney " definately did not have late power" mystifies me ,as he only went past 8rds ONCE in his career,and that against the World Champion.atsch

 

So Frazier is in your top 10 heavyweight champs ever but not great? :hey

 

That night in MSG he would have been a full nights work for anyone who ever laced on a pair of gloves .:good

 

Indeed, tho i still think Foreman bombs him.

 

I'm just saying that he is not the upper elite of that list...... Frazier was a damn good champion for a few years...... I cannot rate Frazier ahead of "Ali, Holmes, Johnson, Lewis, Louis, Foreman, V. Klit, Holy & Tyson." But his name is up there with them dudes.......

I do think that prime Frazier chases both Marciano and Dempsey outta the ring in a time machine.....

The post 1960s heavies really hurt the standings of both "Dempsey and Marciano." Prior to 1960, I'd rate Dempsey and Marciano in the top-5 or 7 ATG champs.... Come post '60, they drop down between #'s 11 thru 12....

Only old-time greats like Jack Johnson and Joe Louis from pre-'60 still make my present top-10 list here today......
thumbsup:bbb

MR.BILL:rasta

 

Foreman was still an Ox in 1971, but he was also pretty goddamn green as well...... Frazier of '71 had a better chance at Foreman then..... However, if Foreman lands a crazy bomb on Frazier's jaw / face at any time, Foreman prolly bombs Frazier outta there.........
:hey

MR.BILL

 

Who exactly makes your list of "great champions" bearing in mind Frazier falls short mate?

 

Look above....:deal

MR.BILL:hat