Frazier vs other ATG

I think he would beat - Evander Holyfield, Larry Holmes, Rocky Marciano, Jack Sharkey, Max Schmeling, Max Baer, James Jeffries, Gene Tunney, Ezzard Charles, Floyd Patterson, and Jack Johnson.

I think he would lose to - Jack Dempsey, Joe Louis, Sonny Liston and Lennox Lewis.

I think quite highly of Joe Frazier H2H. I think he had a very unique style as a come forward fighter, he had excellent defense (head and upper body movement second only to Jack Dempsey in my opinion), had good foot speed and could close the gap between him and a fleet footed opponent very quickly. I think he's the best puncher in the HW division at chasing down movers and boxers. His pressure is faster and more consistent than any other swarmer in the division. His chin is underrated and his toughness and will are second to none, same goes for his stamina. He's also possibly the best body puncher the division ever produced. His hand-speed was quite good. He didn't have one punch power so much, but his power was formidable and his punches were sharp and accurate. He was also one of the best inside technicians of all time, with good strength in the clinches. Joe Frazier was the pinnacle of the swarmer style.

 

Good Analysis of frazier's style maxomer but i have a couple minor dissagreements. for one, i feel he gets stopped by marciano. i think frazier does alot better against dempsey than he does marciano. i also feel jack johnson beats frazier. in fact i think jack johnson beats all of the swarmers. joe louis sonny liston george foreman all knockout a prime frazier. I do strongly feel however that joe frazier would take apart larry holmes


Unlike you im still questionable on fraziers chin. he did not take on any of the well knownbig punchers of the era outside of foreman who annihalated him. he also was floored by clubfighter michael bruce, nearly stopped in the 2nd round by bonavena, and was stunned in many of his other fights

 

Frazier didn't have a great chin when it came to pure concussive force, but I do think he was very hard to stop, at his best. He beat guys with respectable power and took good punches from them without seeming hurt. Foreman blew him out but Foreman is arguably the hardest puncher the division has ever seen and Frazier wasn't prime and he was eating some massive power shots that were landing right on his chin. I also don't think it's fair to count the Michael Bruce fight against him as it was only his second professional bout. In Frazier's prime how many times was he dropped or clearly hurt? Guys like Louis, Marciano, Holmes and Dempsey all were hurt and dropped in their primes.

I think Frazier would beat Marciano based on a few things. For one Frazier is tougher and much better in general than guys it took Marciano a while to get rid of, and Marciano was hurt dropped or cut up by lesser HW punchers than Frazier. He was dropped and hurt a couple of times by Walcott's left hook, and while Walcott was one of the better punchers of his size the division has seen, Frazier was better. I don't think either one fought a puncher as good as the other, but they were hurt by the lesser punchers they did face so I think they would be able to hurt each other, the difference for me is just that Frazier was bigger, stronger, faster and in my opinion performed their similar come forward style more effecitvely.

 

Post Louis I feel he beats Charles, Walcott, Marciano, Patterson, Ingo, Terrell, Ellis, Norton, Leon Spinks, Michael Spinks, Witherspoon, Tubbs, Page, Coetzee, Dokes, Tucker, Berbick, Tate , Weaver, Smith , Bowe, Vitali, Wlad ...

Not sure about Liston, Holmes, Holyfield, Lewis ...

 

I agree with this post. You hit it spot on.

 

If you can't blow him up, and he's backing you up... You're going to have a nearly impossible time with Frazier.

 

what defines toughness? Archie Moore and Jersey Joe Walcott waiting all those years including taking a couple bad beatings and persaverence finally paying off and winning world titles. is that toughness? Is Don Cockell vomitting blood in between rounds in his corner refusing to quit because he promised his countryman he would fight hard for them, is that toughness? or Ezzard Charles refusing to let his back touch the ropes once in 15 rounds vs rock. Frazier showed tremendous toughness in the Ali Wars, but there are alot of other tough fighters too. Both Frazier and Marciano were as tough as they come. I tend to think older fighters are better at surviving longer. Look at young fresh contenders like layne and matthews, they only lasted 2 and 6 rounds vs the Rock. Yet the older guys lasted longer. I do think rocky was the faster starter than frazier pre 1953, had more early round knockouts, and it defintley took frazier a while to get going. Even in his 2nd round knockout wins over foster and ramos, Foster won the first round and ramos landed a bigg uppercut that nearly lifted frazier in the air in the first


Much Better? I would say yes frazier is better than them. But I would also say Marciano is a huge step above Jerry Quarry and Oscar Bonavena who floored joe Frazier twice and backed him up in slugouts.

Frazier was certainly hurt dropped by lesser HW punchers than marciano. A clubfighter Michael Bruce, floored joe frazier. Marciano was only floored by HOFs on Ring Magazines top 100 punchers of all time list. Frazier was floored by a clubfighter. Frazier was also down twice in one fight vs Oscar Bonavena and nearly kayoed....marciano was never on the brink of a kayo like that. Joe Frazier pretty much avoided fighting the punchers of his era for a reason, he did not match up well vs punchers. he has durability issues.

Frazier was bigger, but he also had a little flub around the side midsection naturally. He used to be a fat kid I believe. I do strongly feel Marciano was stronger than frazier. All of marcianos opponents including archie moore who fought big dudes like baker and valdez said marciano was far and away the strongest they ever faced. Ezzard Charles said marciano was not the hardest hitter he faced, but the strongest. Louis said he was stronger than max baer and primo carnera. Marciano was one of the stronger heavyweights of all time. Joe Frazier was actually not very strong. I think he even embarrased himself on TV once in a strength contest losing to a track guy i believe. Strength was not one of fraziers better assets IMO(although Ali did say frazier was very strong).

Yes frazier has the clear edge here. Fraziers movement and handspeed were lightning fast in his prime, the way he takes chuvalo apart and rips his eye open is devastating.

However, I think an advantage marciano has thats more important is two fisted knockout power. Specificully the pre 1954 rocky marciano who had one punch knockout power, something frazier never possessed. frazier's power is comparable to the 1954-1955 swarmer version of marciano, but not the slugger version of rocky who left durable top contenders out cold with 1 punch. A big thing thats going to hurt frazier in this battle of the trenches is Marcianos 2 fisted power vs Fraziers one hand. Frazier does not have power in his right hand, he doesnt. Marciano has power in both fists, and when you go up against a slugger of that magnitude, its tough for frazier to be able to compete with rocky in the trenches with limited tools.


Great Fight I like rocky by mid rounds TKO

 

I might have to come back this next weekend, I'm leaving in the morning and just took a couple of sleeping pills. Don't think I'll be able to debate all that effectively in a few minutes here. Just letting you know, I haven't forgotten about this.

 

A lot of fighters are tough. Frazier was tougher than anyone Marciano fought, his will and resistance to accumulative damage were awe-inspiring. It took Marciano a while to get rid of fighters who weren't nearly as good/tough as Frazier, and they couldn't put the kind of hurting on Marciano that Frazier could have.

Agreed.

I think that's because they had more definsive savvy, experiance and overall skill even if their skills were a bit eroded by age.

Frazier stopped everyone up until Bonevena who was extremely durable. Neither were fast starters, but I might be inclined to agree that Marciano was a bit more dangerous early.

You speak as though Marciano was never backed up. And I think Bonavena and Quarry were, if not better than some of the fighters Marciano beat, more durable.

The fight takes place prime for prime, not Frazier in his second fight vs prime Marciano. How many times was Frazier dropped or visibally hurt in his prime? Watching film of Marciano I've counted several times where he's been wobbled or at least stunned by punches. It's a myth that he couldn't be hurt. He recovered super fast, but he was buzzed, dropped and stunned by lesser punchers than Frazier. Like I said, they will be able to hurt each other with their punches.

I'm not entirly sure this is true.

Frazier in his prime weighed about 20 more pounds than Marciano at his prime weight, he was also an inch and half taller and had a longer reach - he was clearly bigger.

For his size, sure. He was very stocky and strong with excellent pound of pound strength.

He was in the ring.

Irrelevent. We're talking about their strength in the ring, not how much they can bench.

He showed great strength in pushing around guys like Bonavena, Quarry and Chuvalo. He regularly fought bigger guys than Marciano and in all of his fights I've seen he is always able to back his guy up no matter how much they weigh or how strong they themselves are. He was backed up himself by some of his tougher opposition, but so was Marciano.

Marciano did have better two-fisted power, but Frazier was quicker and more precise. I also think he was the more skilled in-fighter, and would get the better of Marciano inside. On a side-note: I don't think Marciano lost power late in his career, he had as much of his pure power as always, what he probably lost was the excellent timing that allowed him to land those brilliant punches he caught Walcott and Layne with.

To sum up my feelings I think Frazier would win because while they would be able to hurt each other, I think Frazier would land more consistently due to his greater hand-speed and accuracy, and Frazier would avoid a lot of Marcianos return fire. I think it goes 10 rounds ending with a Frazier stoppage.

I'm going to Washington D.C. for a week. I'll probably forget about this thread in the meantime, so I'll just assume I won.

 

Larry Holmes is a good call, considering he obviously beat Ali. I personally think Larry had a better jab than Ali - though only slightly - however I still think he'll find different to continually land it on Joe, as well as the overhand right. His right uppercut is another dangerous punch, but again I think he'll find it nie on impossible to land it with Joe being the much smaller guy and with that crouching sort of style and constantly head movement.

Some may say Larry's ring generalmanship and footwork gets him out of problem, but as outstanding as it was, it's still second best to Ali's footwork and even he couldn't get away from Frazier's stalking style. With his excellent stamina, I don't think Holmes can really contend with Frazier's workrate and him working 3 minutes a round for 15 rounds non-stop.

Although Larry had a very solid chin, Frazier as we know dropped Ali with a single left hook in the FOTC, so I actually think he'd have Larry down late, but as we know especially from that huge right hand he took from Shavers, Holmes has an outstanding ability to recover and regroup his sense very quickly.

The Easton Assassin would nick a few rounds of course, but on a 10 point must system over 15 rounds, I'd take Frazier by a score of 144-140, in other words, 9 rounds to 6 with a knockdown in his favour aswell.

 

I will say this because I hate to make it seem I am picking on frazier. I don't think any boxer who ever lived (save a 1967 Muhammad Ali) could beat joe frazier. thats how much I think of him vs boxers.

I do feel he would lose to some punchers, I feel he was vulnerable to them

 

If we're talking the Frazier from 1967 - 1970, just prior to the FOTC, I'd say he'd be a very tough assignment for every heavyweight champion in history, even from Sullivan and Jack Johnson's time.

Many on this forum conclude that the bigger punching heavyweight champions, Liston, Foreman, Tyson, Joe Louis and Lennox Lewis would KO Smokin' Joe. I tend to give prime Frazier more respect than that, because nobody came close to KO'ing prime Frazier, except for Bonavena in one of his first fights against a ranked contender. That would have been a three knockdown TKO, not a true KO. One of the knockdowns against Bonavena, I believe the second in the first round, was more of a push-down as well.

Forget using George Foreman as the primary example because there's a huge difference between the fighter he beat inside two rounds, 1973, and the fighter who was the dominant champion in the late 1960's. I have a hard time believing Foreman would KO this version of Frazier early, especially if Joe finds his underappreciated right hand, which he used effectively against Bugner, Quarry, Ellis and Ali. Joe never got a chance to get to George's body because Mercante was letting him push, shove off, and hold Frazier's shoulders, which another referree wouldn't allow to happen.

Compared to Ali, prime Frazier wasn't as slow as people say he was. Ali did land some serious jabs and right hand shots against Frazier in the FOTC, but at the same time, nobody made Ali miss more punches in a fight.

Prime Frazier's head movement, pace, body attack, endurance and overall toughness could give him a punchers chance against anybody. Nobody KO's this version of Frazier, and the only two I'd bet on winning a possible split decision over fifteen rounds is the Ali of 1964 - 1967, and Larry Holmes 1979 - 1980. Lennox Lewis could probably out-box Joe for more than a couple of rounds and keep him on the outside winning a close 12 round contest. I respect Lennox Lewis as an atheletic big man who was more lighter on his feet than a lot of the heavyweight champions. Over 15 rounds though, Frazier would get to Lennox somewhere around 13 or 14 and stop him.

Dempsey, Marciano, Tyson and Holyfield would provide the most exciting two way action fights against prime Frazier, but none of them would beat him.

 

Im curious as to why you see Frazier beating Holmes ,not disputing your opinion ,just interested.
ps Marciano beats Frazier ,because.
He had better two fisted power.
He had a better chin.
He had better one punch power .