Frazier won FOTC now defends title against Usyk for HW ATG No.1 ('71)

Too many people act like FOTC Frazier was unquestionably the greatest and most indestructible machine ever seen in a ring since Genesis 1:1. I don’t concede that although the discussion isn’t in the ether, I will point out again that even in defeat Ali beat the ever loving merde out of Joe that night and IMO Joe was never truly the same ever again.

But now that I have that off my chest, who has Usyk ever encountered in his life that’s gonna give him what Joe Frazier, FOTC or not, is gonna bring? There’s work rate and then there’s Joe Frazier.

It’s a winnable fight for Usyk, he’s historically elite although GOAT conversation is really getting ahead of his skis, but he’d have to dig deep. Really deep.

 

It's not we were comparing the size differences between Usyk and Foreman my point is that even though Usyk is considered a small heavyweight today while Foreman was considered a large one in his time that's because of how size was relative to its time period and in reality they're the same size. But I guess your boomer brain can't follow basic logic sad!

He is they're the same height and weight around the same as Foreman when he beat up Frazier peak sorry but those are the objective facts, denying them only discredits you further.

Yeah in 2 and if Ali was able to while weighing 210 why wouldn't Usyk who weighs 221 and puts more power into his punches?

Because he weighs more and puts more of his body into his punches as well as constantly hurting larger men something Ali struggled to do. Have you ever watched an Usyk fight? The more I talk to you the more its obvious you haven't.

Because its hard to pressure someone when you're constantly getting tagged with shots that hurt you have you never watched a boxing fight?

Ditto, head to head is entirely based on subjective viewpoints we wouldn't have any hard evidence unless we put those two in ring and saw what happened. Since that's impossible all we can do is make assessments based on our own subjective viewpoints of their skill and some objective facts like size. Not sure why that's a hard concept to grasp for your boomer brain.

Ali isn't better then Usyk on a technical level only in terms of resume and accomplishments which are irrelevant in a head to head. Ali also fought an awful fight in 1 ( you can say he had poor strategies) which showcased his technical shortcomings. When he was in shape and fought a smart fight he won clearly (Second fight) I don't see why Usyk couldn't pull off the same.

Or maybe your boomer brain just can't follow basic logic. Try again next time

I did are you stupid or something or just lack basic reading comprehension?

Its pretty relevant because it shows how a good mover can deal with Frazier why couldn't Usyk replicate what Ali did?
Since its clear you haven't watched Usyk at all I don't think it is. If there's a difference its small, Usyk moves great for a heavyweight and his fundamentals are much better i.e he doesn't get hit by every third left hook his opponent throws.

Its an option which Usyk showed he can do if he has to, because unlike Frazier, Usyk is well rounded enough to have options and adapt to his opponent something Frazier does not. If Frazier can't successfully pressure his opponent then there's not much he can do.

Except I've actually used objective measures to support my argument like pointing out size matter, while you haven't. All of you've done is lie, claim your subjective opinions are "fact" and strawman my arguments while refusing to address any of my actual points, some of which your boomer brain couldn't comprehend. Try again when you learn basic logic.

In short you're an idiot who yaps way too much

 

I’ve said this repeatedly re>FOTC Frazier, some have disagreed with me and you may as well which is fine as long as we’re not disagreeable in our disagreement, but one cannot ignore the sheer hatred Frazier had for Ali which drove him to that level in FOTC and carried him in Manila in a fight that at that point he had no business being competitive in. Frazier did his pressure thing against everyone, it was his deal, but I submit that the exact same scenario couldn’t be unleashed in the exact same fashion against any old opponent, which Usyk would be. The hated to the point of wanting to tear Ali’s heart out and eat it wouldn’t be there.

 

No. It's just an allergic reaction to your aggravated Gen Z clinical moronism (aggravated cases are when the patient thinks they're actually quite smart).

You wrote:

Foreman's size relative to the era is not a size comparison with Usyk, is it? So, yes - it is a pointless comment.

Do you mean Boxrec.com facts?

By the way, you do realize that weight does not equate to size, right?

Well - As already pointed out to you, Ali/Frazier II took place years after the FOTC, which takes this fight outside the parameters of the thread topic. Moreover, you seem to think that just because Usyk weighed in several pounds heavier than Ali that he'd hit harder. What's the science behind that then? Do you think Usyk hits harder than Joe Louis could?

Yeah - Usyk hurts them so bad that he has two stoppage wins at Heavyweight - This is an objective fact - something you should appreciated being such a stickler for objectivity.
Neither of them is spectacular (although the Dubois stoppage may age well, despite him being nowhere near ready for that kind of contest).

You really should have kept that nugget to yourself. It could have been worth something, one day.

No. Never.

Well... ...It isn't difficult to grasp, if the point in question had actually related to the 'head-to-head' directly.

I guess your Gen Z brain must be craving its ADHD meds since the comment I made about you using a subjective viewpoint and irrelevant references without evidence were in relation to this comment from you:

It wasn't referring to the Frazier/Usyk match prediction itself. Instead, it's a pure speculation from you about Usyk's punch power, which is not supported by any objective evidence. You think Usyk hits harder than Ali when only 2 stoppage wins at HW makes it difficult to concur.

Yes, but even if we say that Usyk is better technically, this doesn't make him the better fighter. Ali proved that he was the better fighter through his accomplishments. To entirely divorce these from his ability as a fighter, given they include matches contested at a level we will unlikely see Usyk involved in, could only be considered an ignorantly convenient bias.

Not sure why you keep referring to Ali/Frazier II, when this is not the version of Frazier that the thread topic is discussing.

I asked: "How much of a meaningful size difference, if there is any at all, do you think there is between Usyk and Ali?"

Your answer:

I already knew that you thought Usyk was bigger than Ali, HENCE THE QUESTION **** FOR BRAINS.

So... ...no, you didn't answer the question, did you?

I'll ask again - and, this time, focus, please!!

How much of a meaningful size difference, if there is any at all, do you think there is between Usyk and Ali?

Not when, a) the version of Frazier you are using as the point of reference is outside the parameters of the thread and, b) you are using a diminished version of Frazier to re-imagine a fight involving a peak Frazier.

As to why Usyk couldn't replicate what Ali did, I'll simply say that Usyk is not Ali, doesn't fight like Ali, is not as fast as Ali, doesn't move like Ali, is not as tough as Ali... ...in my opinion.

How many fighters like Frazier has Usyk fought, again?

To be clear and to reiterate - Usyk has never demonstrated anything like what Foreman did to Frazier, ever. The examples you gave were so far removed from what was being asked for as to be, quite frankly, utterly laughable.

The odds are that he can, though.

You keep giving these objective gems away for free.

I'll tuck that one away, along with:

"And I gave a rationale Frazier relies on being able to physically bully his opponents to win fights" (a classic)

Have I? Can you point me to where I have claimed my opinions to be fact?

While you're at it, you can also explain your calling me a liar.

What strawman arguments? Do you even know what one of those is? Or did you read it somewhere else and think it would just be a kool thing to post?

Which points didn't I address?

By the way - what the **** is "boomer brain"?

Well, well - There I was thinking I might just give you - this poor soul - the benefit of the doubt - you know? A sympathy move, on account of you being one of the 'Afflicted'.

But, seriously, it is difficult not to view you as an insidious little turd.
Indeed, I'm sure when your gimp-keeper has to regularly wipe your arse for you and, despite the frequency of such a task, they have trouble finding the point at which to start and finish the wipe. It's a wonder there's anything left of you...

It's been good - Thanks

 

I ain't reading all that keep yapping bro all you boomers can do

 

Lucky Frazier's not a large boxer then. All that experience against the sloths amounting to nothing against Smoke. Pity that.

 

This bloke swallowed it along with the sinker, trace and 30 feet of line.

 

I imagine there were some aggressive and debilitating hallucinogens on that hook.

 

Thank you,,I cannot fathom how a supposed boxing fan can believe that Usyk will get into the trenches with Smokin Joe Frazier and beat him. Your examples of Breidis and Chisora are spot on target ,I think Usyk is a very good fighter who might make it to the 10th or 11th round before folding into a beaten pulp.

 

Remember as great as Smoking Joe Frazier's victory against arguably the greatest heavyweight of all time Muhammad Ali, who had just two fights in 43 months prior to The Fight Of The Century. Not taking away from Frazier's victory, it was won fair and square but it would have been more competitive had both met with all of their physical gifts intact instead of a fighter that had only two fights in 43 months, inactivity tends to rob a fighter of his legs, stamina, reflexes, and timing. With that said, Joe did suffer a great amount of punishment at the hands of Ali. Frazier did spend some time hospitalized, Frazier appeared to have not been the same great champion that was victorious in March 1971 against challenger Ali. Frazier's management pitted him against the likes of less dangerous opponents as Terry Daniels on Jan 15 1972 and Ron Stander on May 25 1972. Then it happened, Joe fought a very devastating challenger on Jan 22 1973 by the name of George Foreman in Kingston, Jamaica, and Frazier was devastated by the younger and stronger Foreman by TKO 2, six knockdowns. Usyk is more of a defensive fighter which would not be good for a post FOTC Frazier. Usyk has good movement, good defensive skills and could take a punch as evidenced against challenger Anthony Joshua. If pre FOTC Frazier or FOTC Frazier fights Usyk, I would have to go for a hungry well prepared Joe Frazier but post FOTC would be a tall order for frazier as he was not the same fighter that vanquished Ali.