Incomplete point ... Norton froze like a deer in headlights and was crushed by Foreman ... Frazier was a warrior , took much bigger bombs and kept getting up ... day and night difference.
I wonder what people would think of Smoke's chin if they viewed Foreman-Frazier II without ever having seen Foreman-Frazier I. (Ditto if they saw Patterson-Johansson II without ever having seen Floyd-Ingo I & III.) Anybody who thinks Jerry Quarry was strictly an attrition puncher would do well to review JQ-Bodell, JQ-Shavers, JQ-Alexander, JQ-Spencer and JQ-Zanon. He was perfectly capable of turning around and winning fights with one punch, and producing single shot knockdowns with either hand. No, he didn't possess top shelf power, but he laid out the chinny Bodell with a single right hand in a way nobody else ever did, ruining Jack's career forever, and he decked Spencer with a single left hook, then several rounds later with a counter right out of the corner, entirely separate and self contained events, likewise destroying Thad's career. Nobody else ever floored or stopped Mac Foster. He dropped a peaking and in shape Mathis in the second round, when it took Frazier 11 rounds to land a much fatter and more poorly trained version of Buster. One left hook from nowhere (just as Don Dunphy observed that Jerry's punches seemed to be losing steam), staggered Lyle from mid ring to a neutral corner in round eight. Earlier, he buckled Ron's knees with a fifth round right hand. Lyle had a decent chin before age caught up to him. In his first 43 bouts, only Shavers and Foreman decked him cleanly. Jerry lost all eight completed rounds against the admittedly chinny Zanon when he suddenly exploded from nowhere to pull it out in the ninth, hardly an attrition win. Zanon was stopped other times in his career, but Jerry stopped him in a match which the Italian cutie dominated prior to the sudden reversal ending it, in contrast to Zanon's losses to Holmes and Norton. Alexander had him out on his feet, even after the rest period between rounds one and two, then Jerry abruptly laid him out for the count without warning. Very few questioned JQ's power during his career. Frazier, Ali and Norton denied him the opportunity to maximize his countering potency much, but if he was afforded the opening to catch his prey, watch out! One didn't beat Jerry the way Smoke did in 1969 without being able to withstand it well to both the head and body. (And JQ probably tested Joe's body more than any other opponent.)
None of these compare. Maybe if only liston stopped floyd he'd fall into the same category. Even if shavers caught frazier, no way would he finish him.
Man, I'm just not certain (at least not yet) how to properly interpret those 13 career knockdowns currently recorded against Ken byissboxWRECK. (Nonetheless, one should always give a source for such details proper "credit" however.) These 13 KDs are Dutra (round two), Eastling (which Norton won in the second round), Garcia 2X, Vic Brown (round one), Foreman 3X, Shavers 2X, LeDoux 2X, and Cooney. Many of these episodes suggest that Norton was simply caught starting slowly out the gate (and Norton KO :59 Bobick was one of the most ludicrously implausible anomalies in HW history). But no, I don't think Ken had so much a glass jaw as a glass psyche. Nor do I think his chin was as proved as Frazier's. Joe did much better in his rematch with Foreman than Ken did with George in Caracas, and I think a case might be made that Bonavena, Chuvalo, and undefeated Mathis, peaking Ellis, Bob Foster, Bugner and Cummings were better punchers than anybody Ken defeated aside from a shot Jerry Quarry (who was infinitely better against Smoke in 1969 than he was for Ken 1975).
Putting his prime from ali1-shavers I think his chin held his own against all but the most fearsome punchers.
Fraziers vulnerability came from his being a target- Joe Frazier type fighters get hit, and they get hit hard. To only get stopped or truly hurt by top level fighters means his chin was more than serviceable. Combine with his toughness, conditioning, and desire, and he was as hard to finish as any champion in history, unless your name is George Foreman.
I can cut Frazier slack for not defending against Mac Foster, the one top shelf puncher of Joe's prime he didn't take on, because Mac failed to get past JQ as the most critical possible moment. That Norton never took on Lyle or Shavers during the prime years of all of them is more concerning to me. (Neither Earnie or Ron were ready to challenge while Smoke was champion.) Shavers, Lyle, JQ and Ali were willing to take on deadly sluggers and master boxers in their climb to and time in contention (and also on top in Muhammad's case). Foreman did take risks after losing the title with slugger Lyle, and cutie Denis. Norton and his management were much more discriminating and careful in their matchmaking during the 1970s, picking so cautiously through the minefield that he only took on Foreman because George was defending the championship, and rematched Garcia when Jose was way overweight and far past it. Would Mac Foster have revived his career in 1974 by knocking out Norton?
McCall beats Foreman? Is that what you are saying? I understand you argument, but where has all the credibility gone from this forum?
Don't bother talking to the troll. Frazier's chin might not have been carved from rock, but bottom line, it was good enough that he could very successfully use a style that made him eat up tons of punishment in the Golden Era of Heavyweight boxing, which featured some of the biggest bombers in history. Enough said.
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Ali did way more damage to Frazier because it was not a chess match like the Norton fights. That should be known. Frazier's chin was not suspect. Due to his style and height, Joe got tagged harder and more often than others. Also, Lyle and Shavers are FAR from being a 100% in shape and motivated Foreman(which George was in both Frazier bouts). To even throw in one more point, in the second Frazier-Foreman fight Joe was VERY ring damaged and way overweight and still took some wicked shots and stayed in there until his contacts got knocked out in round five. This threw him off and Foreman was all to ready to blast away with his bombs.
The only guy to knock Frazier out is Foreman. Because of that people are claiming he has a bad chin. Lets see if we can find a few more examples of guys Foreman knocked from one side of the ring to the other... Oh, George Chuvalo! Yet no one not in their right mid would say that Chuvalo doesn't have a great chin. So why is one guy who got smacked around the ring by the same guy given so much less respect? This content is protected Frazier was much more open to being hurt by Ali than Norton was. This is like saying that because the punches of Marquez were more effective against Pacquiao than Floyd, Floyd must have a stronger chin. No he doesn't. One fought defensively, the other fought offensively, opening himself up to more punishment. And still withstood it. This content is protected