Freddie Welsh v Benny Leonard trilogy

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by trampie, Feb 6, 2009.


  1. trampie

    trampie Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Anybody have any information on any of the Freddie Welsh v Benny Leonard fights.

    1st fight 1916-03-31 Benny wins a 10 round newspaper decision at Madison Square Garden. [ no detail on box rec ]

    2nd fight 1916-07-28 Freddie wins a 10 round newspaper decision at Washington Park A.C [ Lots of detail on box rec, 'Welsh way in front',
    'Welsh too clever for Harlem boxer' and 'the majority opinion that Welsh had won']

    3rd fight 1917-05-28 Benny wins World Lightweight title off Freddie with a TKO in the 9th round of 10, at Manhatten S.C [ box rec says Welsh down 3 times in the 9th ] this was the only time Welsh was TKO'd.

    From what i can gather Freddie Welsh won the World Lightweight title in 1914 against Willie Ritchie in London and then immediately went back to the States, where he had been mainly campaigning before winning the title, he toke advantage of the 'no decision' rule that was in place in America at the time, the only way Freddie could lose his title was if he was KO'd or TKO'd , so Freddie held his title until 1917 when he met Benny Leonard for the 3rd time, it is said that Welsh's manager had
    gambled on his fighter winning the bout using Freddies entire purse to do so !
    Freddie was coming to the end, he was 31 years old and Benny was 21 years old, Freddie never fought for another three and a half years after losing his title to Benny i assume he must have retired but he did come back and have another six fights.
    Benny went on to establish himself as one of the best boxers ever.
     
  2. klompton

    klompton Boxing Addict banned

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    Ritchie was robbed...
     
  3. trampie

    trampie Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Only Ritchie says he was robbed, Freddie Welsh was a defensive genius that would make a puncher look foolish, Ritchie admits that he had trouble hitting Welsh in the face because Welsh had his 'gloves up and chin down'.

    Ritchie goes on to talk about there being an unwritten law that unless a champion is beaten by a good margin he gets a draw.

    Ritchie's comments about not been able to hit Welsh and also saying that a champion needs to be soundly beaten to lose his title, are very damming, his remarks imply that he was fairly beaten on points ?
    Ritchie was an American and would have to have been KO'd back in the States to have lost his title this may explain his disappointment about been beaten on points ?
     
  4. trampie

    trampie Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Was Freddie Welsh robbed in his World title fight against Benny Leonard ?

    The fight ended in controversy because Welsh's camp felt that the referee could not stop the bout without a count !
    Welsh was stopped in the 9th of a 10 round fight so only had to survive another round to retain his title.

    Freddie initially refused to recognise Benny as the champion.
     
  5. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Seriously I never heard that, have you a source K?
     
  6. My2Sense

    My2Sense Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I don't have a source handy, but that was considered a very questionable decision.

    The referee scored the first nineteen rounds even and then gave the last one to Welsh, which meant his scorecard read 1-0-19 in rounds for Welsh - by far the most bizarre scorecard I've ever seen. Ritchie scored a knockdown in one of those rounds, but the ref scored it even anyway. That sounds like a helluva dodgy decision to me. It was as if the ref filed out his scorecard before the fight even started.
     
  7. My2Sense

    My2Sense Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Sounds to me like he's saying that it was a close, hard-to-score fight (which most accounts seem to corroborate) but that Welsh didn't do enough to get the decision, and that as the aggressor and busier fighter (even if not always accurate) he should've had the edge.
     
  8. klompton

    klompton Boxing Addict banned

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    It was widely published that it was a robbery. Lots of people who saw the film said the same thing. Unfortunately customs destroyed the film when it was imported into the united states.
     
  9. Dempsey1238

    Dempsey1238 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Dam that Johnson Jeff fight.
     
  10. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    :huh
     
  11. trampie

    trampie Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I have never seen anything published in the UK to suggest a robbery, it may have been seen that way by the American media ?

    One UK source states that 'Freddie Welsh boxed at his brilliant best to take the decision'

    From where i am sitting in Wales, it seems like a very convenient excuse for Americans to say our man was robbed and by the way we have lost the evidence.
     
  12. trampie

    trampie Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Just think of all the fights Welsh boxers like Jimmy Wilde, Freddie Welsh, Jim Driscoll etc fought in America against American boxers, i doubt if the American officials did many favours for them.

    PS I dont think American officials are any better or any worse than officials from anywhere else.
    A certain % of fights are going to be officiated by biased officials and since most big fights are in America, American boxers are more likely to benefit than non-American boxers. { I do recognise that American boxers do get robbed, Roy Jones Jnr in the Olympic Final against the home countries boxer was 'daylight robbery' }
     
  13. Dempsey1238

    Dempsey1238 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    That was the fight that got fight films ban over seas or cross state lines. Hench the reason Leonard Welsh was destory when they try to cross it into the usa.
     
  14. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    No it was the Johnson Willard fight .Hence the:huh
     
  15. Dempsey1238

    Dempsey1238 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    No Johnson Jeffires was the fight that got fight films ban. Not the Willard fight, which by that time the law was firmly in place.