Froch Vs Calzaghe (greatness and h2h)

Agreed, Calzaghe is the better fighter and would decision a game, but not quite skilled enough Froch.

 

Indeed, and he probably chose to retire at this point, because he knew that his hand problems were becoming untenable.

 

It's a good point that the strength of Froch's CV lies in the fact that it was accumulated quickly over consecutive fights against the best contenders/titleists at 168 rather than intrinsic quality of opponent. Like manbear says, it's to his credit hugely, especially in this day and age of the best lads avoiding each other constantly to milk splinter titles etc. But it was hardly a murderers row level feat and overall I don't think the quality of his comp really outstrips Joe's by much. He has Pascal, Taylor, Dirrell, Abraham, Johnson, Bute, past-it Kessler, Groves x2 and the losses to Ward and the still decent Kessler. The Bute win was massive but I think it get's a bit forgotten that he only edged the past-it Johnson really, was very lucky to get the nod against Dirrell and was seconds away from losing to Taylor. The manner of the Abraham win was impressive though as was the rematch against Groves when he was faded himself (after a tough outing first time out).

Calzaghe has drained Eubank, Woodhall, Reid, Mitchell, old Brewer, Lacy, prime Kessler, Bika and old but still really good Hopkins. Maybe the likes of Veit and Sheika if you're being a bit more generous. Froch's opposition sticks a bit more in the memory by dint of being more recent history but I don't think there's a huge difference in the quality of the wins even though Froch has the possible edge. It was impressive that he took on all comers in such a short span, but they weren't a strong crop of fighters per se other than Ward and Kessler (first time) despite being the best available.

Calzaghe was the better, more talented fighter overall and would've won had they fought imo despite being clearly on the way down.

 

I always preferred Carl Froch, to be honest.

His fight with Pascal, his comeback against Taylor, the epic Kessler bouts, his KO of Bute, the sheer mammoth drama of the Groves matches ... and now that he's a regular on TV ... I just think he had an outstanding career.

I know Calzaghe is held in higher regard by many but his career wasn't nearly as dramatic or fun.

 

I agree with janitor about Calzaghe's hands too, a lot of people don't grasp how bolloxed his hands were from midway through his career. A couple of rounds into most fights and he was more or less fighting on adrenaline to get him through even if a good chunk of his opposition was diabolical.

I agree with luf too about Dawson, it probably would've ended up ranking as a diminished Lacy-type win in retrospect. I was surprised at the time how much call there was for Calzaghe to face him tbh, he looked flawed despite his speed and athleticism even when he was unbeaten.

 

That's fair.

 

If Calzaghe was a better fighter it was in his speed , in & out movement and workrate. Froch for me was a better / stiffer puncher and was more controlled and focused in his attacks. Some of the combos Joe used to trow looked like somebody learning how to swim for the first time and its that slappy technique which is why i never thought of him as an ATG level talent but he was an admirable fan friendly fighter in his own right and a well deserved hall of famer. .
Imo a multi dimensional mover like Ward would have exposed all his flaws and i don't think Calzaghe would have layed a glove on him. His flaws never got exposed because he mostly beat flat footed one dimensional euro levellers but could be seen in the Kessler and Hopkins fights
I think Joe vs Ward could have played out like Mayweather vs Paquaio.

He'd probably beat Froch by the skin of his teeth due to being more loose and agile than Froch.

 

Why do people act like Froch's resume blows Joe's away? The Super 6 tournament along with some of the guys living off hype or past pseudo glories like AA and Taylor inflate the Cobra's ledger in many people's minds imo. H2H their competition was rather comparable.


Reid -------------------------------Reid better version but tight fight
Pascal------------------------------Eubank past prime but more left imo than most credit
Taylor -------------------------------Bika - prime and better SMW career than Taylor
Dirrell - lost in most eyes --------- RJJ
Kessler 1-1 considerably worse version ---Kessler comfortable win
Abraham ----------------------------Lacy
Bute---------------------------------------Hopkins
Groves x2 ---------------------------------Brewer, Mitchell

H2H i think Joe embarrasses him.

* Signature wins

Groves - Eubank, Murray
Brewer - Ottke robbery, Zuniga
Mitchell - SD loss to Ottke, Liles, Siaca

 

Froch was an excellent fighter but he was behind vs Taylor & Groves , split 2 with Kessler & lost to Ward. While Froch kept trying for the KO, Joe Calzage would box, he moved well and had good feet but also stood & mixed, his hand problems were an issue but I remember him stopping Kessler in his tracks with a body shot & putting Eubanks down with a beautiful left cross and also outboxed unbeaten Lefthook Lacy & dumped him in the last rd for a shutout. Joe had a good fight against B-Hop forcing Hop to fake a foul to rest & Joe took his foot off the gas to allow RJJ to survive till the 12th.
Froch was a solid fighter but IMO Calzage would have beaten him in a close UD with some real worthy moments

 

I think it's very hard to put Froch ahead since Joe beat a peaking Kessler and Froch struggled with a fading version.

You can make a case that Joe would have a razor close fight with or even beat Ward (I don't think he'd win but I do think he'd cut it close), but with Froch, we know for sure that he wasn't on that tier.

 

You have Calzaghe quite high. But as you said, that's not the debate. So to answer your question, if Calzaghe must be 85, then Froch would not be in my top 100. Joe was a step up from Froch but, for the reasons mentioned by others, it was a good sized step. If Calzaghe is 85, then Froch is around 120 to 130 for me. Just out of interest, please may I ask where you rate Ward on your list? Cheers